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      03-06-2013, 02:12 PM   #221
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I think the difference is pretty marginal if buying new for the first years while in warranty. The drivetrain in the S4 is certainly more complex, and if you have a problem with the diff/DCT out of warranty then you are pretty f'ed. But you could say the same thing about an M3.

I've never leased a car so I don't know how the buyback works. I do know that Audi financial is not very keen on leasing their cars, so the residual values are horrible. BMW would probably prefer to move you into a new lease rather than quibbling over wheel damage. But that's definitely dealer stuff, not the OEM (similar how it's difficult to get Audi's near invoice). I didn't realize you could get BBS wheels on a factory car, was it CPO or something?
Wouldn't you think that the BMW brand holds value better, so that they are more interested in having their cars back on the used lot than Audi.? I am pretty sure I have heard BMW described in marketing circles as "the most valuable brand in the world".

The BBS were a strange one year thing I guess. I ordered the car not knowing what was going to come on it. I was told that the wheels might be different, but might not.. basically submitted the order prior to being able to spec it out. I wanted the Avus that our 2001.5 had, but it showed up with BBS CH brand new with just a few miles on it. I didn't like them all that well and didn't feel like they complemented the style overall. They were really hard to clean and the brake dust was awful. I loved that car though and will always have a soft spot for the S4.

I much preferred the Breyton GTS I put on my last 335.

They tried to get me to pay $1003 per month lease when we first walked into the finance office and my credit was good. I stood up and said forget it, so they "came down" to the $900 per month. The car was only 55g at that time.
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      03-06-2013, 02:12 PM   #222
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Dealer doesn't care, they don't own the car. Brand specific, sure, could be. Could also just be inspector specific. Whatever human looked at the car and reported the damage, or didn't....
But don't they have to sell it? And recoup profit based on these margins?
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      03-06-2013, 02:18 PM   #223
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Huh? The S4 was completely redone for 2010 MY. Entirely different body, engine, etc.
While that is true the changes FOR ME were not at all dramatic enough. When it comes to cars it is in fact all personal taste as to what a person finds to be nice. Aside from some changes in the body lines which IMHO are subtle at best, Audi remains the same. The engine change was smart since the V8 was a total gas guzzler. It's all subjective. You spend your money the way you like and I will do the same. I'm sure no one here is buying an S4 based on anyone's opinion here.
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      03-06-2013, 02:18 PM   #224
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Wouldn't you think that the BMW brand holds value better, so that they are more interested in having their cars back on the used lot than Audi.? I am pretty sure I have heard BMW described in marketing circles as "the most valuable brand in the world".

The BBS were a strange one year thing I guess. I ordered the car not knowing what was going to come on it. I was told that the wheels might be different, but might not.. basically submitted the order prior to being able to spec it out. I wanted the Avus that our 2001.5 had, but it showed up with BBS CH brand new with just a few miles on it. I didn't like them all that well and didn't feel like they complemented the style overall. They were really hard to clean and the brake dust was awful. I loved that car though and will always have a soft spot for the S4.

I much preferred the Breyton GTS I put on my last 335.

They tried to get me to pay $1003 per month lease when we first walked into the finance office and my credit was good. I stood up and said forget it, so they "came down" to the $900 per month. The car was only 55g at that time.
It's a pretty well known fact that BMWFS artificially inflates their residuals to lease more cars. It's just a different business model. As to "brand value", this is different than used car value - I thought apple was the most "valuable brand" but I could be wrong. I would argue that the large supply of used BMW's (due to subsidized leasing) drives down the value of a used BMW. From what I've read it's *very* hard to get out of a BMW lease, because the actual value is less than the residual.
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      03-06-2013, 02:26 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by drob23
But don't they have to sell it? And recoup profit based on these margins?
BMW or Audi financial services, yes. Not the dealer. I'm sure they are held somewhat accountable since they are receiving the car on behalf of FS, but once you drive it off the lot that first time, they're out of the equation financially (maintenance aside...). Usually lease returns just go through the auction.
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      03-06-2013, 02:26 PM   #226
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It's a pretty well known fact that BMWFS artificially inflates their residuals to lease more cars. It's just a different business model. As to "brand value", this is different than used car value - I thought apple was the most "valuable brand" but I could be wrong. I would argue that the large supply of used BMW's (due to subsidized leasing) drives down the value of a used BMW. From what I've read it's *very* hard to get out of a BMW lease, because the actual value is less than the residual.
I have not tried, but I have heard it is basically impossible to get out of a BMW lease.

Back to the S4... I was just thinking something that hasn't been mentioned. Historically, remember back in the mid 2000s the S4 was pitted against the M3 and NOT the 3 series. Those were the pre-335 days. So, when I was looking at S4s I was comparing it to an M3. I really wanted a sedan too and the M3 didn't have a sedan that year. I did really like the Laguna Seca blue color.
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      03-06-2013, 02:38 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by chrisny View Post
BMW or Audi financial services, yes. Not the dealer. I'm sure they are held somewhat accountable since they are receiving the car on behalf of FS, but once you drive it off the lot that first time, they're out of the equation financially (maintenance aside...). Usually lease returns just go through the auction.
Edit: oops didn't read your last sentence Guess the auction throws everything out the window...haha

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      03-06-2013, 02:45 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by 1bad335
While that is true the changes FOR ME were not at all dramatic enough. When it comes to cars it is in fact all personal taste as to what a person finds to be nice. Aside from some changes in the body lines which IMHO are subtle at best, Audi remains the same. The engine change was smart since the V8 was a total gas guzzler. It's all subjective. You spend your money the way you like and I will do the same. I'm sure no one here is buying an S4 based on anyone's opinion here.
Thanks for the lecture, but you're drawing an awful lot of conclusions from one simple statement about the '10 on being a new body style. No one told you how to spend your money or that your opinion was wrong. You didn't say it hadn't changed enough for you, you said it "hadn't really changed," period. 7" longer, entirely new platform, engine, interior, tech, etc are pretty substantial changes, replacing a model that had been out for 8 years. Saying it didn't look different "enough for you" is entirely different than just saying it "hadn't really changed."
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      03-06-2013, 03:03 PM   #229
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I have not tried, but I have heard it is basically impossible to get out of a BMW lease.

Back to the S4... I was just thinking something that hasn't been mentioned. Historically, remember back in the mid 2000s the S4 was pitted against the M3 and NOT the 3 series. Those were the pre-335 days. So, when I was looking at S4s I was comparing it to an M3. I really wanted a sedan too and the M3 didn't have a sedan that year. I did really like the Laguna Seca blue color.
Seems like Audi has been more particular about their various performance segments. The quattro (company not drivetrain or car lol) RS line is the best match for the M line. But they have rarely supported the D-Segment with the RS variant in NA. The e9x M3 got a big performance upgrade and I think Audi decided to make the S4 compete more with the FI V6 class. The E46 M3 is definitely not in the same performance class as the E92 M3, although it is for sure lighter.

The B8.5 S4 did bring with it the RS drivetrain, which makes the difference vs the A4 *much* greater than the 328i vs 335i.
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      03-06-2013, 04:02 PM   #230
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I'm not sure why some posters in this thread would say that an F30 335i or even an E90 335i is A LOT better than the S4

Car I had before my current S4 was a 2008 e92 M3. The M3's interior was dated compared to the S4.

I've test drove '10 335i as well as '12 f30 335i. Both had M pkg or whatever BMW calls it nowadays. '10 felt better compared to the f30 for steering feel. But the F30 felt better around corners.

M3 > S4 > 335i

And S4 has better resale value than a 335i period.

'10 335i with most pkgs were going around 30-32k at the time when I was looking. '10 S4 were going at the lowest 40k
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      03-06-2013, 04:07 PM   #231
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But they have rarely supported the D-Segment with the RS variant in NA.

The B8.5 S4 did bring with it the RS drivetrain, which makes the difference vs the A4 *much* greater than the 328i vs 335i.
What did that first sentence mean? D-segment? NA? Over my head.

When shopping, I haven't driven the most recent S4,... on purpose. That being said, I haven't driven an F30 yet either, but I'll "settle" when it gets here.

I think, back in the day, the RS was vastly different from the S? Wasn't it not that long ago that the upper end 3-series, be it 330 or 335 had a different drivetrain than the lower model?
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      03-06-2013, 04:24 PM   #232
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What did that first sentence mean? D-segment? NA? Over my head.

When shopping, I haven't driven the most recent S4,... on purpose. That being said, I haven't driven an F30 yet either, but I'll "settle" when it gets here.

I think, back in the day, the RS was vastly different from the S? Wasn't it not that long ago that the upper end 3-series, be it 330 or 335 had a different drivetrain than the lower model?
Sorry, just car talk for north american mid-size car class. Audi sells S3/RS3, S4 Avants and A5 sportbacks in Europe...more performance models than in North America. Much like M cars, audi uses the company quattro to build their RS lines, and I think these are built in a separate factory. Like M, they start with a certain chassis and then provide weight reduction measures and make the cars much more performance oriented: suspension - engine - drivetrain - brakes etc.

You ordered an F30 without driving it?

You can read about the RS brand here if you like. I thought 3 series variants were always engine upgrades, with a couple options like zhp on the E46 that were possibly trim dependent. The 335is e92 coupe you can get now has the option for the Getrag DCT you see in the M3.
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      03-06-2013, 04:42 PM   #233
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This S4/335i debate is interesting. I think most car reviews will agree the S4>335i. However the public does not seem to agree with this based on sales.

335i outsells S4, I can bet that even if you curve out all 335i's that are leased and compare whats left to all S4s that are leased & financed, the 335i will still come out on top.

A lot of people here have argued that the S4 was just not that convincing enough to get into from the 335i mostly because it looks dated now.

What we can all agree on is these two cars are at the top of their class, you cant go wrong either way, inline 6 cough cough
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      03-06-2013, 04:45 PM   #234
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You ordered an F30 without driving it?
Yes, I really liked my '09 335i and really like the payments on BMW leases. I can't lease another vehicle of that caliber/cost for the same payment, so why not? I just sent an email to my dealer telling him what I wanted on the car and a check for a deposit. We'll see when it gets here next week.

I like new cars and I drive about 10k per year, so I lease. We have 2 leased cars and have them staggered, so we get a new one every 1.5 years, which is fun. Total waste of money, but what the hell?

Anyhow, this thread sparks my interest, because of my S4 affinity. Totally jealous of an S4. If I drove the S4 and the F30 335 I would probably like the S4 better, but I think I will like the BMW payment better in the long run. So, I don't drive an S4.

I have been driving an '11 Toyota 4Runner ltd for the last 1.5 years, so do you really think I can be disappointed with a 335? My wife's X5 feels like a rocket when I drive it.
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      03-06-2013, 04:56 PM   #235
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The S4 / 335 debate is really pretty silly. They are very close in anything that isn't subjective, so it becomes a subjective argument... Arguments over opinions are useless. They are both great cars. I tend to bounce back and forth between BMW's and Audi's because they are simply both great products and because I never want the same car for longer than a few years so going from the 335 I have now to the S4 I'll likely get next gives me a very comparable car, while also giving a fresh look.

It's like taste in women. Maybe you like blondes then one relationship ends you want a brunette for a change, but you want them both to have nice tight bodies. Now that I'm married, I can still change my cars every 3 years
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      03-06-2013, 04:58 PM   #236
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This S4/335i debate is interesting. I think most car reviews will agree the S4>335i. However the public does not seem to agree with this based on sales.

335i outsells S4, I can bet that even if you curve out all 335i's that are leased and compare whats left to all S4s that are leased & financed, the 335i will still come out on top.

A lot of people here have argued that the S4 was just not that convincing enough to get into from the 335i mostly because it looks dated now.

What we can all agree on is these two cars are at the top of their class, you cant go wrong either way, inline 6 cough cough
I've seen figures that around 60% of all new BMW's in NA are leases. BMW has become even more dependent on the US with EU economic downturn, while Audi has aggressively been going after eastern markets. Worldwide sales are more or less the same (maybe 1.5 to 1.4 million). The S4 is a much more niche product. You have to option the 3 series pretty specifically to compete, and based on what you see on dealer lots, very few 335's are m-sport. Don't get me wrong, a 335 modern line is a great car, but it won't be in the same performance class as an S4. Not everyone wants a harsh sports car, but rather a refined 335 with power to spare. I'd venture 328 vs 335 is probably 10 - 1, and things will get even more skewed with the 320.

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      03-06-2013, 05:04 PM   #237
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Yes, I really liked my '09 335i and really like the payments on BMW leases. I can't lease another vehicle of that caliber/cost for the same payment, so why not? I just sent an email to my dealer telling him what I wanted on the car and a check for a deposit. We'll see when it gets here next week.

I like new cars and I drive about 10k per year, so I lease. We have 2 leased cars and have them staggered, so we get a new one every 1.5 years, which is fun. Total waste of money, but what the hell?

Anyhow, this thread sparks my interest, because of my S4 affinity. Totally jealous of an S4. If I drove the S4 and the F30 335 I would probably like the S4 better, but I think I will like the BMW payment better in the long run. So, I don't drive an S4.

I have been driving an '11 Toyota 4Runner ltd for the last 1.5 years, so do you really think I can be disappointed with a 335? My wife's X5 feels like a rocket when I drive it.
They're both great cars, and if you're leasing in the US, definitely go with the BMW. I'm sure you'll love it, great car, especially after driving an SUV
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      03-06-2013, 05:06 PM   #238
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Now that I'm married, I can still change my cars every 3 years
+1000

This is the right approach to life
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      03-06-2013, 05:09 PM   #239
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They're both great cars, and if you're leasing in the US, definitely go with the BMW. I'm sure you'll love it, great car, especially after driving an SUV
I am not leasing my 335i, this is why I find it very odd that people would say lease the BMW buy the Audi. It boiled down to passion for me and am sure the same can be said for you
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      03-06-2013, 05:14 PM   #240
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I am not leasing my 335i, this is why I find it very odd that people would say lease the BMW buy the Audi. It boiled down to passion for me and am sure the same can be said for you
I think you misread the logic of my statement, I said

"If lease then BMW" (for obvious $ reasons)

not

"If buy then audi"
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      03-06-2013, 05:35 PM   #241
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I found an old, sorry for the quality, pic of my car with the BBS CH. That is my father-in-law driving not me.

Look how damn dirty those things were all the time. I just never liked those wheels and was so disappointed they came factory that year. I have never understood why the BBS CH is so popular?
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      03-06-2013, 06:03 PM   #242
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Better?

Now try to tell me that my 335 didn't look better than my S4.
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