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      01-20-2013, 04:12 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by topcat87 View Post
if that is really the case the 20i should make higher power boost for boost. higher compression=higher power. Just that it cannot take too much boost
I think inherently it isn't strong enough when badged as a 20i.
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      01-20-2013, 05:58 PM   #288
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They're identical in terms of design, the only difference is the variance in terms of quality. What determines the different part numbers? Not the design in this case.
The part numbers of the short engine is identical & it's only the earlier 320i's that have different turbos.
The compression ratio is different on the F30 but on the E84 & F25 they're the same. The tuners do not make a distinction between either "versions" of the engine.
The full engine type numbers of the 20i & 28i are N20B20U0 & N20B20O0. The N & U only signifies the state of tune & there's nth to suggest they're different in any sense.
It isn't simply limp mode on the 20i or anything cos so far ALL tuners managed to get only around 220ps from the 20i. None have to far reached the stock output of a 28i.
You obviously don't know what you are talking about...or you probably have been lurking around forums for too long picking up some wrong info.

Please do yourself a favour and look up the part numbers. The n20 white paper might also help you a little.

Turbos are same part number.

Short engine have different part number, unless your car has the low compression option, S858A. N20B20U0 is not a part number. When the 20i engine is ordered with the S858A option, you will get the exact same engine as the 28i. That is the one with part number ending in 7079. If you order the 20i without S858A, then you get the 11:1 engine with part number ending with 8912 or some other number. Last I checked, S858A can still be ordered for F30.

When you say all tuners, you obviously have not looked enough, because my 20i engine is making over 235hp, with room to go higher if I wanted.

To know why tuners cannot get 250hp out of a 20i engine, you need to first understand how are these cars "tuned". All these tuning options, like TMC, speedbuster, JB, swiss chiptech, hartage...etc are not really tuning your engine. What these tuning boxes are doing is simply take your boost sensor reading, make it lower, then feed it back to the car ecu. Some will also read other sensors and "fake" the readings accordingly.

How does that make so much more power than? It simply allows your engine to run a higher boost than the engine thinks it is running.

When do you get into limp mode? When you over do the added boost, the engine detects abnormal parameters, it will start throwing fault code, at least mine and a few others did.

It was fine on the dyno after tuning. Does it mean it will run perfectly fine on the road? No, it might not. There is still a chance of throwing fault at high speed. Why? I honestly don't know.

How is limp mode like then? Well, there are variations. In any case, you either lose all power with idrive prompting error...or the engine shuts down by itself.

How do I know? Been there, done that and got scared the shit out of me the first time I got limp mode. This is because cars are expensive here. F30 316i cost over USD150k here. Yup, a 136hp 316i F30, 150k usd. F30 320i will be another 20k premium.

Would love to share with you more, but I can't because I am not paid by BMW or any tuner...needa go make some money for dinner tonight.
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      01-20-2013, 06:17 PM   #289
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This is because cars are expensive here. F30 316i cost over USD150k here. Yup, a 136hp 316i F30, 150k usd. F30 320i will be another 20k premium.
That's a lot of tax. Are all cars hit with a fixed levy or does it increase with the value of the car? How much would something like a 911 cost over there, which retails here for about USD 120K?

I guess you have an interesting used car market too.
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      01-20-2013, 09:49 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by reallyreallyslow View Post
You obviously don't know what you are talking about...or you probably have been lurking around forums for too long picking up some wrong info.

Please do yourself a favour and look up the part numbers. The n20 white paper might also help you a little.

Turbos are same part number.

Short engine have different part number, unless your car has the low compression option, S858A. N20B20U0 is not a part number. When the 20i engine is ordered with the S858A option, you will get the exact same engine as the 28i. That is the one with part number ending in 7079. If you order the 20i without S858A, then you get the 11:1 engine with part number ending with 8912 or some other number. Last I checked, S858A can still be ordered for F30.

When you say all tuners, you obviously have not looked enough, because my 20i engine is making over 235hp, with room to go higher if I wanted.

To know why tuners cannot get 250hp out of a 20i engine, you need to first understand how are these cars "tuned". All these tuning options, like TMC, speedbuster, JB, swiss chiptech, hartage...etc are not really tuning your engine. What these tuning boxes are doing is simply take your boost sensor reading, make it lower, then feed it back to the car ecu. Some will also read other sensors and "fake" the readings accordingly.
Go back last yr & search for previous threads re N20 20i, several of us (E90fleet, etc) did a part number match for some key parts & they turned up identical. I didn't say "N20B20xxx" is the part number, I only said they're the engine codes. There were some differences for different periods of times (e.g. the turbo) & also for different models (low or high compression depending on chassis type), but they are batch related according to E90fleet. As I said, wht determines parts that are essentially identical been given different part numbers? Materials used (not in this case)? Design (not for the N20)? Manufacturing quality (never say never)? We also discussed abt compression ratios then. Probably u haven't been long enough here to catch those previous threads......
Well, ur engine is making 235ps but it's not making 245ps. Of course those piggy-back modules have limitations, but don't u think some of the larger tuners such as Hartge have tried sth more comprehensive than a piggy-back? If it did work then they would've offered it cos of the potentially big market in Asia & some parts of Europe.

Last edited by clarence; 01-20-2013 at 10:57 PM.
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      01-22-2013, 10:04 AM   #291
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It says right in the first post:

*Sport package available including 18-inch wheels with summer tires and increased top speed limiter, sport seats, M Sport suspension, M steering wheel and anthracite headliner.
Yes, but no Dynamic Handling Package available.
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      01-22-2013, 10:14 AM   #292
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Yes, but no Dynamic Handling Package available.
Which is unfortunate, because DHP is about the best feature on the F30.

But I understand... if you (or dealer) is looking seriously at a 320i, you'll want to keep MSRP low, else a heavily optioned version will encroach upon 328i/335i prices.
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      01-22-2013, 12:44 PM   #293
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Which is unfortunate, because DHP is about the best feature on the F30.

But I understand... if you (or dealer) is looking seriously at a 320i, you'll want to keep MSRP low, else a heavily optioned version will encroach upon 328i/335i prices.
Regarding not being able to to select DHP as an option is the only draw-back. Is there a way of petitioning BMW to make it available? Calling BMWNA would be a waste of time.
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      01-22-2013, 01:02 PM   #294
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Regarding not being able to to select DHP as an option is the only draw-back. Is there a way of petitioning BMW to make it available? Calling BMWNA would be a waste of time.
Not gonna happen. Just order a 328i
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      01-22-2013, 02:16 PM   #295
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This seems to be a good entry level model into the 3 family, so I went in an optioned one as I would like it (sport/Prem/Nav/Leather) - came to 44k, a price at which I would seriously think 328.

I am sure it will find a lot of buyers who may not want many options....but then again, hard to think that someone paying 44k for a car would not want nav/bluetooth etc.

Let's see how it sells - for sure there will be a lot of new loaners
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      01-22-2013, 02:18 PM   #296
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Before this post gets too carried away with an insane volume of misinformation let me just state a few simple facts.

The key differences between the two engines is the PISTON. While it's true that the bore and stroke of the engines is the same and the actual displacement (as in the diameter of the combustion chamber multiplied by its length) is the same. The amount of the fuel the engine will take in during piston extraction and the amount of the compress you will get during piston's travel back depends (among many parts) on the piston head itself (as in the top shape / and overall height).

So, the only way to make 320i = 328i, is to replace the pistons.
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      01-22-2013, 03:14 PM   #297
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Not gonna happen. Just order a 328i
Thanks for your reply, how did you come to this conclusion.
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      01-22-2013, 03:28 PM   #298
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What about that 330d ?
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      01-22-2013, 03:57 PM   #299
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Thanks for your reply, how did you come to this conclusion.
Um, logic? Why would BMW allow you to load up their "value" car, with all the options, performance and features of their more premium 3-series? They wouldn't.

The same reason you can't order Navigation on a Honda without the leather package.
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      01-22-2013, 04:19 PM   #300
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Um, logic? Why would BMW allow you to load up their "value" car, with all the options, performance and features of their more premium 3-series? They wouldn't.

The same reason you can't order Navigation on a Honda without the leather package.
Not sure if that's a logical conclusion but for what it's worth, interesting.
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      01-22-2013, 05:41 PM   #301
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Go back last yr & search for previous threads re N20 20i, several of us (E90fleet, etc) did a part number match for some key parts & they turned up identical. I didn't say "N20B20xxx" is the part number, I only said they're the engine codes. There were some differences for different periods of times (e.g. the turbo) & also for different models (low or high compression depending on chassis type), but they are batch related according to E90fleet. As I said, wht determines parts that are essentially identical been given different part numbers? Materials used (not in this case)? Design (not for the N20)? Manufacturing quality (never say never)? We also discussed abt compression ratios then. Probably u haven't been long enough here to catch those previous threads......
Well, ur engine is making 235ps but it's not making 245ps. Of course those piggy-back modules have limitations, but don't u think some of the larger tuners such as Hartge have tried sth more comprehensive than a piggy-back? If it did work then they would've offered it cos of the potentially big market in Asia & some parts of Europe.
Truth be told, I have actually been through almost many threads on n20 engine and many of them are more like people who don't actually own one speculating what is the difference between the differen power level. Some are people who have not even seen the part number catalogue, telling people the engine are the same or different. Perhaps it will be nice if you could point me to the compression ratio discussion.

Yes, part number is different between different time of manufacturing, but in all instances, the short engine for the n20 is the same whether you order the 20i with 858A option or 28i. The turbo is the same.

However, if yours is ordered without the 858A option, the turbo is the same, but the short engine is not, because the pistons are different. Correct me if I am wrong, but it is really difficult to build an engine, dyno it, and then open up the engine to replace the piston/change the compression ratio, isn't it?

In any case, we are talking about 245hp out of a turbo di engine for their lowest end market, not 800hp. It isn't that difficult to achieve that in the first place.

As for the 235hp vs 245hp, I am sure my engine can make more than 250hp with a change of downpipe+exhaust and a higher tune with premium pump petrol. The problem is why would I want to do that when the amount of money spent to do that can get me a 28i in the first place? This is just a car for daily commuting, not a M-car. I can see myself spending $600 to make it 50hp faster. it just does not make sense to throw in another 5k to make it another 15hp faster.
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      01-22-2013, 06:01 PM   #302
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That's a lot of tax. Are all cars hit with a fixed levy or does it increase with the value of the car? How much would something like a 911 cost over there, which retails here for about USD 120K?

I guess you have an interesting used car market too.
Tax+greedy dealer. There is only one dealer for each brand of automobile. That means you either buy from them or fark off. Tax is structured such you pay a "buy car permit" price(fluctuating) that is currently close to 80k usd. Then a further import and registration tax of 127% of the open market value is paid. That means, a typical 535i will pay a total of 130-140k usd in tax, depending on the trim/options.

The dealer's profit margin they make from selling a base f10 here is probably enough to buy another base f10 in the states. So add that all up and you have the crazy car price.

911s pdk will probably go for around USD400k with another 3k for annual road tax and possibly insurance premium of close to 5 digit. One should probably add another couple of grand to actually use the car during peak hours because we have something called the electronic road pricing which is kinda like congestion charges.

Might seem cheap if everyone was making truck load of money. Unforunately, typical "all in benefit" of a young engineer with a 2-1 or better is only between 40-60k, before tax. Couple that with crazy housing price, inflation and everything else, few can really afford a proper car.

Based on "performance", our prime minister was paid close to usd 3million for the past couple of years...That money has to come from somewhere right? In Singapore there is no corruption that happens under the table because they take it legally, right in front of your face. Come to think about it, I might actually pay less if the goverment was corrupted.
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      01-22-2013, 09:25 PM   #303
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Truth be told, I have actually been through almost many threads on n20 engine and many of them are more like people who don't actually own one speculating what is the difference between the differen power level. Some are people who have not even seen the part number catalogue, telling people the engine are the same or different. Perhaps it will be nice if you could point me to the compression ratio discussion.

Yes, part number is different between different time of manufacturing, but in all instances, the short engine for the n20 is the same whether you order the 20i with 858A option or 28i. The turbo is the same.

However, if yours is ordered without the 858A option, the turbo is the same, but the short engine is not, because the pistons are different. Correct me if I am wrong, but it is really difficult to build an engine, dyno it, and then open up the engine to replace the piston/change the compression ratio, isn't it?

In any case, we are talking about 245hp out of a turbo di engine for their lowest end market, not 800hp. It isn't that difficult to achieve that in the first place.
Search for member E90fleet & u'll see the discussion. As I said before, yes, the part numbers are different, but are they of a different design? Different part numbers could mean many things - different design, materials, supplier or even manufacturing grade. Nobody has done a direct comparison between a high compression 20i piston w/ a low compression one, so we don't know wht is the exact difference. If u look at the specs on all X-series BMWs w/20i engine, they're all fitted with the low compression version, don't u think tuners would've noticed that?
Yes, 245ps is not difficult for a 2 litre turbo, but wht's difficult is that this engine has a very wide & consistent operating range which no other can match save for one or two (on paper Subaru's FA20T & GM's cherry-picked Ecotecs). There are many things apart from peak power & torque that can fail an engine, plus nobody knows the exact defect rates they have.
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      01-23-2013, 10:20 AM   #304
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I won't be convinced that it's "binning" until someone from BWM manufacturing posts to confirm. Sorry, but identifying the differences through part numbers and tuner speculation is incredibly difficult. You'd have to tear down and analyze the two engines from production runs in the same time span, and you'd have to critically analyze every single component until you found the difference. That's unlikely, to say the least.
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      01-23-2013, 11:29 AM   #305
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I won't be convinced that it's "binning" until someone from BWM manufacturing posts to confirm.
If it isn't binning then they'll categorically & explicitly say no. If it is then they won't comment.
In other words that's the theory until someone from the inside said no.
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      01-23-2013, 11:41 AM   #306
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Before this post gets too carried away with an insane volume of misinformation let me just state a few simple facts.

The key differences between the two engines is the PISTON. While it's true that the bore and stroke of the engines is the same and the actual displacement (as in the diameter of the combustion chamber multiplied by its length) is the same. The amount of the fuel the engine will take in during piston extraction and the amount of the compress you will get during piston's travel back depends (among many parts) on the piston head itself (as in the top shape / and overall height).

So, the only way to make 320i = 328i, is to replace the pistons.
+1

In November last year, a technical training session on N20 engine was offered to selective customers by a BMW dealer in Beijing, China. During the session the BMW trainer basically confirmed that the top shape of the piston head is different in 20i and 28i models. This is consistent with what one would logically derive from the compression ratio formula - reduced clearance volume resulting in higher compression ratio (11: 1 as in the case of 20i).

Unfortunately the post in the hyperlink below is in Chinese. However I think the pics might still be interesting to have a look at. In addition to an N20 engine torn apart, one gets to see many of the key components in this engine, as well as a few close-up shots of the pistons.

http://club.autohome.com.cn/bbs/thre...7972169-1.html

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      01-23-2013, 01:48 PM   #307
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Anyone else notice that Mercedes recently took the wraps off their new CLA car? It's likely going to compete directly against the BMW 320i. It's geared towards a younger demographics for approx $30K. And before you say, yea but it's front wheel drive, ask yourself how many actual 320i drivers will notice the difference (or care) between FWD and RWD. Plus, AWD will be an available option for the CLA. I didn't like the concept pictures, but I'm kinda digging it in bright red in the real life pictures.

Article:
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...get-price.html



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      01-23-2013, 01:54 PM   #308
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If it isn't binning then they'll categorically & explicitly say no. If it is then they won't comment.
In other words that's the theory until someone from the inside said no.
Why would they say anything? That's just spinning the absence of information in order to support your argument.

That's *your* theory. I just don't think it holds water. I know enough about manufacturing to know that the kinds of variances you're talking about would make the production of an engine very expensive.
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