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      07-16-2012, 01:36 AM   #1
Gerusarus
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F30 Audio in Logic 7 HK

Is there music available to listen to on the Logic 7 that will give you the full effect of Logic 7. I’ve read on some forums that BMW did provide a audiophile CD with their cars at some stage. I’ve seen the disk on torrent sites, but with 0 seeds. Where can I get such a CD, perhaps download it. I do not think that copyright should be an issue because we are all Beemir drivers. Else what songs can I get that will provide me with the Logic 7 sound. Here in South Africa, the music shops think you are a total weirdo in asking for any music other that your normal L&R stereo channels.

Last edited by Gerusarus; 07-16-2012 at 01:42 AM.
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      07-16-2012, 02:48 AM   #2
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Most music is 2-channels, else you are looking for DVD/DVDA or SACDs that can be multi-channel (typically 5.1).

You should probably better look at some audio forums for a a good multichannel source, and compare to the 2 channel version.

PS: looks like a good place to start : http://canadahifi.com/forum/showthre...ecommendations

PPS: not sure that all sources can be played in you car though, make sure to check first
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      07-16-2012, 02:56 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwickers View Post
Most music is 2-channels, else you are looking for DVD/DVDA or SACDs that can be multi-channel (typically 5.1).

You should probably better look at some audio forums for a a good multichannel source, and compare to the 2 channel version.

PS: looks like a good place to start : http://canadahifi.com/forum/showthre...ecommendations

PPS: not sure that all sources can be played in you car though, make sure to check first
Thank you!
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      07-16-2012, 11:04 AM   #4
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Logic 7 is not a format, remember that. It's not like DVD-A (MLP), SACD (DSD), or DTS-CD (DTS WAV). It artificially creates multichannel sound from a stereo signal.

As far as I know, DTS-CDs are the only native multi-channel audio only discs the 3 series will play. And that's probably only if you have Nav (I assume only cars w/ Nav have DVD drives?). You can download DTS-CDs via torrent (thepiratebay) or create your own from dvd-a discs (takes a little work).

Of course - I'm basing this on my experiments w/ a 09 335i with Nav - not my own car.
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      07-16-2012, 02:17 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrazVT View Post
Logic 7 is not a format, remember that. It's not like DVD-A (MLP), SACD (DSD), or DTS-CD (DTS WAV). It artificially creates multichannel sound from a stereo signal.

As far as I know, DTS-CDs are the only native multi-channel audio only discs the 3 series will play. And that's probably only if you have Nav (I assume only cars w/ Nav have DVD drives?). You can download DTS-CDs via torrent (thepiratebay) or create your own from dvd-a discs (takes a little work).

Of course - I'm basing this on my experiments w/ a 09 335i with Nav - not my own car.
Yes, I don't think the DVD/CD unit will play the formats you describe.
Also, I don't know if will accept and decode multi channel formatted audio from a USB.

Logic7 in the system is an on/off setting in the HK unit.
There aren't any settings like a true surround sound unit.
Unless, I couldn't find how to get into those settings.
I looked in the system, but it was just on or off.
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      07-16-2012, 02:23 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Yes, I don't think the DVD/CD unit will play the formats you describe.
Also, I don't know if will accept and decode multi channel formatted audio from a USB.

Logic7 in the system is an on/off setting in the HK unit.
There aren't any settings like a true surround sound unit.
Unless, I couldn't find how to get into those settings.
I looked in the system, but it was just on or off.
There are settings. Highlight "equalizier" and press the idrive.
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      07-16-2012, 02:32 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerusarus View Post
Thank you!
Check this out:
http://www.automotive.harmankardon.c...ns/logic7.aspx

Logic7 is not like true surround 5.1, 6.1, etc...
It's a processor designed to take 2 channel stereo, 5.1, 6.1, etc...and interpret the audio to then create a sound field especially suited for a car environment.

Thus, there isn't material specifically coded for logic7.
It's like some of "surround" settings in a surround sound AV amplifier, where an artificial surround is created by the built in processor, and is mainly intended to be used with 2 channel stereo to convert it and create a surround field, where no surround field was actually coded into the source material.

Where 5.1 or 6.1 contains true discrete channels of information, specifically engineered and coded to playback out of certain channels/speakers, Logic7 uses it's coding to artificially create a "surround" field.

Even if you had a DVD-A or SA-CD, which are true 5.1 discrete channel coded, Logic7 won't play it back as your home surround system would.
It would take that audio information and reprocess it to create the Logic7 surround field.

I'm not sure if the HK DVD player will play those types of media, but it should playback move DVD's that are coded in surround such as DTS, or Dolby Pro-Logic. However, from what HK says, Logic7 won't playback those discrete audio tracks either. It will simulate and create it's own Logic7 sound field for that media as well.

Basically, Logic7 is not a true discrete channel surround sound system, like DTS or Pro Logic.
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      07-16-2012, 02:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbrock22 View Post
There are settings. Highlight "equalizier" and press the idrive.
Those are eq settings, not settings for Logic7.
EQ settings are the same even if Logic7 is on or off.

Since Logic7 creates it's own sound field, and uses it's own settings to create it's sound field, then there really isn't any reason for a user to alter any settings, like one might with a true surround sound system, where you may need to alter distance of speakers, size, delay, etc...
Much of that is already known and programmed in already.

I had thought that Logic7 was a true surround sound system, but it's not.
The marketing of Logic7 is misleading, as it's not "surround sound" as we know it in the theater or home surround systems.
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      07-16-2012, 04:19 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Those are eq settings, not settings for Logic7.
EQ settings are the same even if Logic7 is on or off.

Since Logic7 creates it's own sound field, and uses it's own settings to create it's sound field, then there really isn't any reason for a user to alter any settings, like one might with a true surround sound system, where you may need to alter distance of speakers, size, delay, etc...
Much of that is already known and programmed in already.

I had thought that Logic7 was a true surround sound system, but it's not.
The marketing of Logic7 is misleading, as it's not "surround sound" as we know it in the theater or home surround systems.
It's not just BMW. Think about all the TVs, stereos, etc. that have "surround" sound buttons but only have two speakers. The sound isn't truly surround. It's just a processor that plays tricks on the ears. Though the sound they create is kinda cheesy.
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      07-16-2012, 11:43 PM   #10
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Thank you all, it all makes sense!
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      07-23-2012, 07:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adelphi_sky View Post
It's not just BMW. Think about all the TVs, stereos, etc. that have "surround" sound buttons but only have two speakers. The sound isn't truly surround. It's just a processor that plays tricks on the ears. Though the sound they create is kinda cheesy.
True, but they "fake" surround. They use phasing to create a sound field.
True AV surround receivers have real surround decoders that process individual channels in true surround sound coded material.

The worst of the surround processors are the ones that make 2 speaker systems into "surround". Those sound the worst.
If you've got a true surround AV receiver, there are other surround algorithms that can take 2 channel source material and create multi channel surround output so that you can listen to 2 channel material coming out of all your surround speakers. Those processors again create a surround field from material that's not codes to be surround.
That is what Logic7 does.

Also, an AV receiver has adjustable settings for speaker size, distance, delay, etc...
Logic7 isn't that bad. It tries it's best to take 2 channel sources and create a sound field. The major thing that distinguishes Logic7 from say the "surround' on a 2 speaker TV, is that Logic7 actually uses multiple drivers/speakers to create a sound field where each location in the car hears left and right better. So that the drivers doesn't just hear the left channel loudly and little of the right, and the passenger doesn't just hear the right channel loudly and little of the left.
By using phasing Logic7 moves left and right closer to each sitting position, and does a decent imitation.

Not all 2 channel stereo is created equal either. It depends on how the engineers recorded it an processed it.
Take a listen to early Van Halen recordings, the main guitars come from one side and the vocals from another. Then, you hear some guitars in the other channels but at a quieter level and mostly it's the stereo guitar effects. Same with vocals. You can hear Roth's voice clean in one channel and his reverbed and/or delayed/processed effects come through the other channel at a lower level. If you listen to just 1 channel of those recordings you don't fully hear the whole band. But, played together in stereo it sounds cool.
Then there are stereo recordings where most of the sounds are split evenly left and right but some sounds are "panned" left or right" to enhance the stereo stage image. This all works in a 2 speaker stereo setup. But in a car the recordings sound funny as the left and right on some recordings is too much in one channel or another to sound good, because in a car we don't sit in the "sweet spot" to hear the image correctly.
Logic7 tried to remedy that. It works good with some recordings with others so so.

I optioned the HK Logic7 as over all it's cleaner and plays louder than the standard system. I'm looking forward to hearing different material through Logic7 and having extended use of it to get a better in depth experience by which to better judge it.
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      07-23-2012, 11:50 PM   #12
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Thank you to ALL whom contributed to my question, you guys are great. Hopeful taking delivery of my car on the 30th of Jul. The BMW factory is only 14km from my home here in Pretoria South Africa, I also had the opportunity to see some of the actual stages of my car being build, weird but a awesome, me being a perfectionist, almost jumped in to assist in getting it perfect.

PS: I am not working for BMW, I am a Technical Service Manager, specializing in Unix, Linux, Oracle, SQL and Microsoft. Also involved in robotics and assembler, both of the latter being my hobby.
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      12-03-2012, 03:23 PM   #13
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Gerusarus - please help

I tried to IM you... Have you found optimal EQ settings for the 2013 Harmon Kardon system?

I saw your previous posts indicating that you have the right equipment to measure frequency response and tune the system.

Using the stock "flat" settings sounds muddy and distant. I am sure there are better setttings to make such a system sound better.
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      12-03-2012, 06:55 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Fastdriverinca999 View Post
I tried to IM you... Have you found optimal EQ settings for the 2013 Harmon Kardon system?

I saw your previous posts indicating that you have the right equipment to measure frequency response and tune the system.

Using the stock "flat" settings sounds muddy and distant. I am sure there are better setttings to make such a system sound better.
I know your asking someone else, and I don't have that kind of equipment.
But, I've fiddled and fiddled with the EQ in the HK system and have come to the conclusion that it makes very little difference in getting a better sound.

Frankly, with a good CD the system sounds great, and all you need is a touch of eq to compensate for your own hearing and preferences.
Left flat on the eq and just using the treble and bass CD's sound great with the HK.
Also, FM sounds good too as far as FM goes.
My iPod sounds good too, but the files I have are not overly compressed.

The problem is satellite. It's AWFUL and no amount of eq can fix that.
It's simply a bad/poor source of material as it's highly compressed with a lot of tonal information stripped away so they can pack even more channels into the transmission bandwidth they have.

Have you played some CD's or high quality .wav or MP3's?
That will give you a better appreciation for how good the HK can be.

Also, I do not like Logic7 with any source, but with satellite it's really bad.
Sat audio is compressed that it messes up the sound stage to begin with.
Add in L7 and staging becomes even worse.
With CD's it doesn't mess with it too badly, but the space L7 attempts to create is not to my liking.

L7 is an attempt to compensate for the limitations of aural staging inherent in the car environment. Stereo imaging is best when the listener is within the "sweet spot", which is pretty much in between the left and right speakers/drivers. As you know, the only seating position in the car that fits that is the center of the backseat.
Since the driver and passengers sit outside the sweet spot, L7 attempts to create a sound stage where each corner can actually hear both channels.
But, the problem is how can you optimize each corner?
L7 attempts to do that, but sound travels, so any phasing manipulation you do to compensate for each corner will result in those sound waves travelling to all the other corners, and now you have another situation of not being in the optimal position.

Maybe it would be better if L7 offered some settings where the driver can select a program to compensate for stereo staging just for the driver when it's only the driver, and then select another program for just the front seats when there is also a passenger. The rear passengers? Oh well, too bad.
Just having some music playing in the background is good enough for that, because when there are that many people in the car usually people are talking to each other anyway.
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