[dopper99]

Hi all

For those with M Sport suspension (or adaptive), I was reading somewhere the other day and someone said the F30 was as good as a hot hatch for handling, would you say this is true? Has anyone owned or driven a good hot hatch recently to compare the two?

(Apologies to non M Sport owners but I guess there isnt much point comparing non M Sport suspension to a hot hatch - I guess!)

[NISFAN]

I would say that even the non M Sports handle BETTER than a hot hatch. I was blown away with how well balanced the chassis is. Test drive was a 320D Sport, which as we now has the standard suspension. Had the 18" option wheels on it.

EDIT: To say, M Sport suspension would make it more comfortable to chuck around, rarely increases a cars cornering ability.

[dopper99]

Yes, you'll find a lot of new cars in any marque handle well these days, eg Ford, Vx, Citroen, Renault's etc etc etc..... they all have firm suspension compared with cars from 20-25 years ago and older. The main difference with sport-style suspension is less body roll - but at the expense of a more uncomfortable ride (unless you have adaptive of course).

I've followed shitty little old Pug 207's on the twistys that weigh next to nothing and have had to work hard to keep up around the bends.

[sdb123]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

I would say that even the non M Sports handle BETTER than a hot hatch. I was blown away with how well balanced the chassis is. Test drive was a 320D Sport, which as we now has the standard suspension. Had the 18" option wheels on it.

EDIT: To say, M Sport suspension would make it more comfortable to chuck around, rarely increases a cars cornering ability.

Interesting that you say that. I had a loan F30 320d Sport with 18" wheels (my car was in for a service) and whilst it handled well, there was a fair bit of roll in the body for my liking. The suspension sat pretty high and that kind of made my mind up to get adaptive suspension if I were to go down the F30 route.

[RobUK]

Remember, suspension/handling is only part of the equation - the key element is driver skill and that ain't on the options list

[NISFAN]

I guess we are talking about different things then....my view on handling is actual cornering speed (corner G forces).

Body roll is un-desireable, but doesn't affect (within reason) cornering G force ability.

Hope that helps

[MaestroAl]

I don't think most people would define handling that way

I've owned and driven lots of hot hatches but you'll have to wait for me to compare

[dopper99]

Originally Posted by MaestroAl

I don't think most people would define handling that way

I've owned and driven lots of hot hatches but you'll have to wait for me to compare

I think even within the hot hatch arena there would be quite a difference in handling.
Something like a Clio Sport is supposed to be like a go cart - you cant expect a 1600kg 3 series to handle like that I would not have thought? Where as a Focus hot hatch being a bit heavier isnt probably quite as good as the Clio or Megane? I dunno.

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by MaestroAl

I don't think most people would define handling that way

I've owned and driven lots of hot hatches but you'll have to wait for me to compare

Ah coming from a Mazda, you'll simply be blown away

[NISFAN]

Originally Posted by dopper99

I think even within the hot hatch arena there would be quite a difference in handling.
Something like a Clio Sport is supposed to be like a go cart - you cant expect a 1600kg 3 series to handle like that I would not have thought? Where as a Focus hot hatch being a bit heavier isnt probably quite as good as the Clio or Megane? I dunno.

Hatches generally have understeer built into them...and understeer is annoying. The 3 Series is very well balanced (in four pot diesel form), I hope the heavier 3litre engine doesn't upset things too much.

[MaestroAl]

I suspect in terms of on-the-limit balance and driveability, the 3 series will punch well above its weight (OK, well below it if you're pedantic!) but it'll never be as chuckable as a hot hatch. But a car "feels" good if it talks to you. You need to know when you're approaching its limits and you need to know how it will react when you get very close or step over them. Ultimately there's no substitute for weight but there's a lot you can do to a car to make it handle well.

One thing that often makes me laugh at our colonial cousins is that they seem to have this obsession with "stiff=sporty" (say it in the right accent in your head, it really helps) which is utter nonsense. A stiffer car simply reacts to your inputs more quickly but is nearly always worse handling than a softer car. A bit of body roll lets you know instinctively when you're getting close to the limits of adhesion, a softer car with a good damping setup will always keep more rubber on the road compared to the same car with stiffer springs. It's just simple physics. You can control transitional forces with better damping and good ARBs and keep softer springs to get a much more driveable car. Slam it and you'll ruin it every time. Oh, and it'll look stupid

[Spacebug]

Originally Posted by dopper99

I think even within the hot hatch arena there would be quite a difference in handling.
Something like a Clio Sport is supposed to be like a go cart - you cant expect a 1600kg 3 series to handle like that I would not have thought? Where as a Focus hot hatch being a bit heavier isnt probably quite as good as the Clio or Megane? I dunno.

So I have been driving my wife's Renault ClioSport 172 since my E91 died in December last and right up to when I got my F30 M Sport last week. I have been looking for an excuse to shout from the rooftops how glad I am to be back in a rear wheel drive car!!

The ClioSport has so much torque steer that it feels bloody dangerous. The car is quick and handles pretty well but understeer and torque steer are both pretty naff in my opinion.

I love rear wheel drive, it's without question the way the power should be put down, that coupled with the BMW chassis is an absolute winner. My experience of various cars is pretty limited but I know what a good handling car should feel like and the F30 is very good indeed.

A v happy customer!

[dopper99]

Interesting write-up about the Clio Spacebug. Good to hear the F30 is so good

[sdb123]

Originally Posted by RobUK

Remember, suspension/handling is only part of the equation - the key element is driver skill and that ain't on the options list

Oh, I know that.

Maybe I was expecting too much, but I preferred my E90 to the F30 in terms of the handling part of the drive.

[NISFAN]

Was your E90 also ED?

[Carjack]

My current F30 320D M-Sport in 'sport mode' is for sure better round the bends than my previous E90 320D M-Sport ('59 reg), although very good!
It feels to corner flatter and firmer with no roll. Very nice indeed!

[TMP]

The balance of the 3er is sublime and has been since the e46 (when they added DSC, e36 did bite a bit!). Same goes for driver feedback, I am still amazed at how steering and brake feel there is.

But, the main drawback s the cars weight - typically 400kg more than a hot hatch. So thats like having all you mates in the hot hatch! At least the F30 is lighter than the e90!

Compared to say a Clio 200, which needs to be driven by the scruff of the neck and forced around corners a 3er is all about flow and progressive power. Two very different styles, both very rewarding.
I would actually liken the 3er more to a 911 than a hot hatch handling wise.

The other downer of the 3er is no limited slip diff, the higher power engines really could do with one to get the most out of exiting corners

[NISFAN]

I don't think the F30 is 400kg's more than a modern hot hatch.

Ford RS is just under the 1400kg mark, Megane RS 1345kg, Golf GTI similar.

F30 320D is supposedly 1430kg in auto box form with nearly full fuel tank. Spec states 1505kg including 75kg payload and 90% full fuel tank.

[MaestroAl]

Originally Posted by TMP

... typically 400kg more than a hot hatch.

Originally Posted by TMP

I would actually liken the 3er more to a 911 than a hot hatch handling wise.

Have you been drinking again ...

[F30AM]

I tested an 8 speed 320d with 18" wheels. On familiar roads, I was able to make faster progress with much less effort than in my GTI. Climbing directly from one to the other made me realise the absolute superiority of RWD, uncorrupted steering, 50/50 weight distribution, superior build quality, the list goes on. But the most amazing thing was that the F30 felt smaller than the GTI. The car just shrank around me and I felt at one with it. I therefore had to have one or as in my case two!

[TMP]

Originally Posted by NISFAN

I don't think the F30 is 400kg's more than a modern hot hatch.

Ford RS is just under the 1400kg mark, Megane RS 1345kg, Golf GTI similar.

F30 320D is supposedly 1430kg in auto box form with nearly full fuel tank. Spec states 1505kg including 75kg payload and 90% full fuel tank.

When I typed it I had the Clio RS I mind... 1204kg impressive ,but suppose a Class Smaller than the Megane.

Was also thinking that of a 330 (I don't think a 320d would keep up). They weigh in at 1600ish kg.

Originally Posted by MaestroAl

Have you been drinking again ...

See above for weight