[thatsagoodpoint]

Who are "they"?
=========

The UAW..

[pdxBeav]

Originally Posted by thatsagoodpoint

Who are "they"?
=========

The UAW..

Not to get too off-topic, but are you suggesting that the "UAW" puts ball bearings into random Corvettes just so it'll make a rattling sound?? I think I must be misreading this.

[Maz335i]

My 335i will eat this ATS ALIVE!!!

[DrivenByE30]

Having recently purchased my very first brand new car in my life, i have been hit with the JD-Power survey that comes after such a purchase,


and having gone through that survey, i can tell you that those questions they have:
Certainly are not, and cannot be qualified as totally scientific nor as representative of people true choice and intentions
as they make it sounds...

I think a lot of people trust and give way more credits to JD-powers results and analysis than they deserve...

The questions they ask and the answers that were given to us might seem very objectives... but certainly the reasons for each answer are not sought after accurately enough...,
It just leave too many details and background information on what type of person answer ed those questions...

Just IMHO as a "scientist" engineer point of view ...

So please take those JDPowers stuff with a grain of salt...

[KneeDragr]

I personally dont see it. Its hype IMO.

Engine wise, the 2.0 is no match for the 328i, nor is the 3.6 a no match for the 335i. The 2.0 is basically a Turbo Regal trimmed down a bit weight wise ( 300lbs ) with more luxurious interior. The Regal is getting spanked big time by everything made outside the US, I cant see the weight making that much difference.

Im not a GM hater, I own a C6 GrandSport Corvette, I just just personally think they do not engineer their cars anywhere near the level BMW does and thats why they are cheaper. Trimming the fat and loading it up with nice leather is not going to make it a BMW beater in my mind.

Wait until the car hits the street, all the ATS lovers are going to get a lot quieter.

[thatsagoodpoint]

Not to get too off-topic, but are you suggesting that the "UAW" puts ball bearings into random Corvettes just so it'll make a rattling sound?? I think I must be misreading this.
========

Yes that is what I am suggesting as per my uncle's tour of the factory after talking to one of the guys on the line. So I'm not even really 'suggesting' that as much as I am 'stating' that.

[pdxBeav]

Originally Posted by thatsagoodpoint

Not to get too off-topic, but are you suggesting that the "UAW" puts ball bearings into random Corvettes just so it'll make a rattling sound?? I think I must be misreading this.
========

Yes that is what I am suggesting as per my uncle's tour of the factory after talking to one of the guys on the line. So I'm not even really 'suggesting' that as much as I am 'stating' that.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/grace/rattle.asp

[tuned2ride]

The 2.0 is basically a Turbo Regal trimmed down a bit weight wise ( 300lbs ) with more luxurious interior.

It is a new lightweight platform.

ATS=RWD
Regal=FWD

[KneeDragr]

Originally Posted by thatsagoodpoint

He spoke to one of the guys working the line and he asked him if he ever heard a rattle? My uncle did not and the union guy told him he must be one of the lucky owners as they put a ball bearing into every 10th Corvette built. Now, imagine paying that much money for it,

Since you are talking about a Corvette I will offer my opinion.

You dont have to pay a lot for a Corvette, actually its very cheap when you consider what you get for the $.

I got a GS Corvette brand new for 46k, and there really isnt a car that could beat it around a road course without paying nearly twice as much, and ironically it would still be a Corvette, lol.

Sure a lot of old guys go in there and get every option in the book, pay 30k more for the exact same car with a few gadgets - whatever floats your boat.

Sure its very low tech, but its low tech thats been tuned and refined over 40 years so it really works. I have zero rattles in mine BTW.

[KneeDragr]

Originally Posted by tuned2ride

It is a new lightweight platform.

ATS=RWD
Regal=FWD

I stand corrected, but like I said, I dont have a lot of faith that GM could build a car that could beat the F30. Put them on track with the same tires, same driver, and my guess is the F30 will have about a 1sec/minute advantage. Thats about as close as GM can get for the same $ IMO, they are too far behind to catch up on their first attempt.

If I am wrong I will apologize and eat crow.

[Red Bread]

I'd think that without stupid RFT's and with a real LSD, the ATS 2.0T should actually put down better track times than a US 328i with it's little brakes, lack of LSD and RFT's. I don't think this has much to do with why buyers actually buy either, in the same way that a Cobalt SS is quicker around the Ring than a 335i.

[DrivenByE30]

Originally Posted by KneeDragr

I stand corrected, but like I said, I dont have a lot of faith that GM could build a car that could beat the F30. Put them on track with the same tires, same driver, and my guess is the F30 will have about a 1sec/minute advantage. Thats about as close as GM can get for the same $ IMO, they are too far behind to catch up on their first attempt.

If I am wrong I will apologize and eat crow.

I wouldn't continue dismissing them...

Cadillac and the Koreans have understood where they were wrong in the past, and they have and they are correcting their aim/shots now...

They have been on the learning curve and ramping to catch up with the Germans....

I would say they are very close, very very close....

closer than you think... they certainly are not over beating BMW, because BMW is still keeping the lead, as they have more experience and continue to innovate in all domains...

One thing is for sure, the automotive industry is pushing the envelope of their knowledge and so this is now more up for anyones grasp.

But Cadillac is now understand how BMW operates, right down to the philosophy... when you copy a leader long enough, you soon start to assimilate the same traits...

Things are becoming very interesting now...

it's like Cadillac is starting to discover BMW's secret formula ....
scary but true ...

The next Cadillac will be one heck of a car...

IMO, the ATS is an impressive car ...

[SCBimmerKid]

Originally Posted by DrivenByE30

I wouldn't continue dismissing them...

Cadillac and the Koreans have understood where they were wrong in the past, and they have and they are correcting their aim/shots now...

They have been on the learning curve and ramping to catch up with the Germans....

I would say they are very close, very very close....

closer than you think... they certainly are not over beating BMW, because BMW is still keeping the lead, as they have more experience and continue to innovate in all domains...

One thing is for sure, the automotive industry is pushing the envelope of their knowledge and so this is now more up for anyones grasp.

But Cadillac is now understand how BMW operates, right down to the philosophy... when you copy a leader long enough, you soon start to assimilate the same traits...

Things are becoming very interesting now...

it's like Cadillac is starting to discover BMW's secret formula ....
scary but true ...

The next Cadillac will be one heck of a car...

IMO, the ATS is an impressive car ...

+1, nicely said. I would most certainly rather have a BMW, but I think the ATS is a great attempt and it's a nice car. You still see a couple spots where they were held back by budget, but I can't wait to see their next iteration, because I have no doubt they'll have enough money to make it perfect. This is going to be a big seller, mark my words.

[DrivenByE30]

Originally Posted by SCBimmerKid

+1, nicely said. I would most certainly rather have a BMW, but I think the ATS is a great attempt and it's a nice car. You still see a couple spots where they were held back by budget, but I can't wait to see their next iteration, because I have no doubt they'll have enough money to make it perfect. This is going to be a big seller, mark my words.

I am a die hard BMW fan, just like i am a die hard for manual transmission...
and that's why i am still and will be in the BMW camp,

but for the less unconditionals, the ATS is one tempting alternative... and so will be the next Cadillac replacing it...

BMW will just have to keep up their game.

But Props to Cadillac for not giving up

[E36toF30]

Originally Posted by KneeDragr

I personally dont see it. Its hype IMO.

Engine wise, the 2.0 is no match for the 328i, nor is the 3.6 a no match for the 335i. The 2.0 is basically a Turbo Regal trimmed down a bit weight wise ( 300lbs ) with more luxurious interior. The Regal is getting spanked big time by everything made outside the US, I cant see the weight making that much difference.

Im not a GM hater, I own a C6 GrandSport Corvette, I just just personally think they do not engineer their cars anywhere near the level BMW does and thats why they are cheaper. Trimming the fat and loading it up with nice leather is not going to make it a BMW beater in my mind.

Wait until the car hits the street, all the ATS lovers are going to get a lot quieter.

Your post doesn't really make sense. You own a C6 GrandSport Corvette, which if I'm not mistaken will beat any BMW around a track, and yet you think GM doesn't engineer their cars anywhere near the level BMW does?

The engine choices for the ATS are perhaps a bit lacking, but I don't think there's any question that they can build a platform capable of high performance.

[KneeDragr]

Originally Posted by E36toF30

Your post doesn't really make sense. You own a C6 GrandSport Corvette, which if I'm not mistaken will beat any BMW around a track, and yet you think GM doesn't engineer their cars anywhere near the level BMW does?

Yes if you read other posts of mine you would understand, but that is what I am saying.

The Corvette performs so well because it is made of a lot of plastic, is extremely low, has very wide tires that are pushed out to the farthest corners possible, and has a very stiff suspension. It has also been tuned very well through decades of experience.

But from an engineering standpoint, its about 10-15 years behind the curve that BMW is on, its very low tech that relies mostly on old school physics to achieve results.

[dude987]

If you like the ATS, by all means, please go by it as your next car. As for me, I'm perfectly content with the bimmer.

[E36toF30]

Originally Posted by KneeDragr

Yes if you read other posts of mine you would understand, but that is what I am saying.

The Corvette performs so well because it is made of a lot of plastic, is extremely low, has very wide tires that are pushed out to the farthest corners possible, and has a very stiff suspension. It has also been tuned very well through decades of experience.

But from an engineering standpoint, its about 10-15 years behind the curve that BMW is on, its very low tech that relies mostly on old school physics to achieve results.

Ok, I kind of see what you're saying. Building a true track monster like the Corvette involves compromises and that's not the kind of car BMW wants to make. GM engineers have still done some very impressive things I think. I'd like to see BMW make something that can go around the track as fast as a ZR1. I don't think it matters who you are -- that's a challenge.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by dude987

Cadillac wants to compete in the olympics and their strategy is to try to keep up with the fastest runner. Boring. It's the same old song and dance year after year. Mismanagement, incompetence, and unable to compete. BMW has invested heavily in R&D year over year to become competitive and relevant in their industry. The results are reflected in their corporate profits bottom line (indisputable). GM executives have neglected R&D year or year in lieu of pocketing over paid compensation, bonuses, and stock options. The result of R&D neglect has resulted in an impotent company that had to be bailed out by the US government and held the US taxpayers hostage to their incompetence. Yes you and I paid for their multi-million dollar salaries year over year while they laughed all the way to the bank. Honestly they should have been allowed to fail. It's called capitalism. Survival of the fittest. Why should taxpayers bail out incompetent businesses? To this day, they are still not competitive and will continue to rely on US taxpayers to bail them out while they continue to neglect R&D and run their business into the ground.

The only way GM can survive is to produce a product that offers better performance and at a better value then the leading competitor (BMW maybe?). The company is so bankrupt that they can't even afford to baseline R&D. It takes years of investments in R&D before it even begins to produce the fruits of its capital.

Until GM can produce a better performance product and at a better value, this whole discussion about BMW and ATS is stupid.

Vent is not directed at the OP or anyone else on this thread. Just wish GM would $h!t of get off the pot. They need to get serious and can incompetent management. Don't hold the taxpayers hostage to executive compensation. Seriously!!!

Sorry that this post will delve a bit into politics, but I felt compelled to respond to offer a different view to the above poster.

Well, you've got your view on the politics of GM and our government, and I have mine.
I don't feel that GM held "us" hostage in any way.
Other than some GM stock that our government is holding, GM has paid back what they borrowed. As for the stocks, we don't HAVE to sell them yet and take a loss. We can wait until stock prices are better.
Also, they are selling excellent volume of cars, and doing quite well in China.
If China would actually be fair about it's trade practices, GM profits would go up and their stock would rise, and our government could then sell the stock we have and either break even or even make a profit.
Plus, GM has lots of good new products coming out.
If that's a failure to you, then I don't know what counts as success.

I think it's awesome that we were able to save an American company instead of allowing it to be chopped up for profit by money sharks like Romney, who truly would laugh all the way to offshore banks with the money they would make from destroying it.
I'm glad that many thousands of employees got to keep their jobs and be able to provide for their families, instead of going on unemployment where out tax dollars would have to go to feed and support them until they could find other work.
So, to me, it is a better investment of my tax dollars to invest in an American company, and more importantly, in fellow American citizens to continue WORKING instead of taking our tax dollars in the form of unemployment and food stamps.

We may not drive American cars, but for some of us that's because we have different driving expectations. There are still plenty of people who like and buy GM cars for their reasons.
I'm glad there is an American made sport sedan that I may like and find very satisfying to drive. It deserves my attention.

This is a company that is coming back from years of bad management and bad decisions. So far, given what GM is doing, there is not reason to think it's the same old GM. From what I see GM doing, and how well they are doing, it's clearly not the same old GM.

Why does the ATS HAVE to be better than the 3 series to be successful?
This is a new car. For the ATS to be reviewed as well as it is, and to be directly and favorably compared to the 3 series, demonstrates how well the engineers and workers have done at Cadillac.
Audi didn't beat the 3 series in the last round or comparo's, neither did MB, and a whole lot of other cars.
So, why does Cadillac have to be held to such a high standard on a brand new, never before released car?

If the ATS can bite into the over all near luxury sport sedan market, then that will be a very successful start for a new model. I can see the ATS taking some market share from all the premium sport sedan makers including BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus, Infiniti.

Those who dismiss the ATS right off hand because it is American made are really just brand loyalists.
I too love BMW. I live them for the drive qualities they put into their cars, not because of the brand logo.
If Cadillac has a product that can directly compete with a 3 series, damn right it perks up my ears, and excites me to test it out for myself without preconceived notions of GM has been.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by tony20009

With Cadillac, how does one know with which car to compare? The ATS, XTS and CTS sedans all seem to be comparable to the F30 more or less in terms of size and price. Indeed, looking at Cadillac's website, it wasn't clear to me why one would choose one of these models over the other.

The only reason the CTS got compared to the 3 series was because Cadillac didn't have a car in the size class as the 3.
So the CTS became an in between competitor with the 3 and 5.
But, it's really more comparable to the 5 given it's size and competitive pricing.
There were low option low intro cost CTS's that compared to the 3's pricing, but that comparison is more about pricing than actual vehicle size class.

Also, the CTS-V now is much more an M5 competitor than an M3.
The XTS should never be confused as being a 3 series competitor, it's simply too big.

The ATS is a bit smaller than the current 3 and competes directly with it, as ti was designed and built for that purpose.

Many 3 series fans bitch about how big the current 3 has become.
But, I'm sure it won't be long before people bitch that the ATS is "too small" and doesn't have enough leg room. And, Cadillac like BMW, Audi, etc...will respond with making the next one larger.

[dude987]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Sorry that this post will delve a bit into politics, but I felt compelled to respond to offer a different view to the above poster.

Well, you've got your view on the politics of GM and our government, and I have mine.
I don't feel that GM held "us" hostage in any way.
Other than some GM stock that our government is holding, GM has paid back what they borrowed. As for the stocks, we don't HAVE to sell them yet and take a loss. We can wait until stock prices are better.
Also, they are selling excellent volume of cars, and doing quite well in China.
If China would actually be fair about it's trade practices, GM profits would go up and their stock would rise, and our government could then sell the stock we have and either break even or even make a profit.
Plus, GM has lots of good new products coming out.
If that's a failure to you, then I don't know what counts as success.

I think it's awesome that we were able to save an American company instead of allowing it to be chopped up for profit by money sharks like Romney, who truly would laugh all the way to offshore banks with the money they would make from destroying it.
I'm glad that many thousands of employees got to keep their jobs and be able to provide for their families, instead of going on unemployment where out tax dollars would have to go to feed and support them until they could find other work.
So, to me, it is a better investment of my tax dollars to invest in an American company, and more importantly, in fellow American citizens to continue WORKING instead of taking our tax dollars in the form of unemployment and food stamps.

We may not drive American cars, but for some of us that's because we have different driving expectations. There are still plenty of people who like and buy GM cars for their reasons.
I'm glad there is an American made sport sedan that I may like and find very satisfying to drive. It deserves my attention.

This is a company that is coming back from years of bad management and bad decisions. So far, given what GM is doing, there is not reason to think it's the same old GM. From what I see GM doing, and how well they are doing, it's clearly not the same old GM.

Why does the ATS HAVE to be better than the 3 series to be successful?
This is a new car. For the ATS to be reviewed as well as it is, and to be directly and favorably compared to the 3 series, demonstrates how well the engineers and workers have done at Cadillac.
Audi didn't beat the 3 series in the last round or comparo's, neither did MB, and a whole lot of other cars.
So, why does Cadillac have to be held to such a high standard on a brand new, never before released car?

If the ATS can bite into the over all near luxury sport sedan market, then that will be a very successful start for a new model. I can see the ATS taking some market share from all the premium sport sedan makers including BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus, Infiniti.

Those who dismiss the ATS right off hand because it is American made are really just brand loyalists.
I too love BMW. I live them for the drive qualities they put into their cars, not because of the brand logo.
If Cadillac has a product that can directly compete with a 3 series, damn right it perks up my ears, and excites me to test it out for myself without preconceived notions of GM has been.

The US government should not be in the business of bailing out failed companies. It they can't compete, they should fail just like any other business. It's called capitalism.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by batislav

looks like the ATS is bigger than the f30 so I don't know it'll satisfy your worries about f30 bigness.

The ATS wheelbase is shorter at 109.3" vs 110.6 for the 3.
Overall length of the ATS is 182.8" vs 182.5 for the 3.
ATS weight is under 3400lbs (engine not listed) vs 3360MT/3410lbs.AT for the 328i.
ATS width is 71.1" vs 71.3" for the 3.
ATS height is 55.9" vs 56.3"

Basically it's about the same size as the current 3.
Reviews do say the rear leg room is a bit less.
Even the weight is nearly the same. This is where Cadillac could have and should have done better.