New C&D sports sedan compare (F30 vs A4, G25, C260, S60) - Page 4 - BMW 3-Series Forum (F30 / F32)

ATX78703 · 04-08-2012, 06:02 PM

All this talk about tires, i was looking at the pix of that concept M135i and it has Michelin PSS's... freakin awesome.

Propagator · 04-08-2012, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bimmerjph

The E90's steering is sooooo different from any other sedan on the market. I remember the first time I drove one I thought the power steering wasn't working properly, because it was so heavy. It is also extremely precise. I can't speak much for feedback, because the only E90s that I have driven were dealership loaner cars, so it was just on smooth boulevard type roads.

I agree that the E90 steering is heavy, but the steering in my wife's first generation TSX is not THAT much lighter. It's not quite as precise, but it still is a very nicely engineered, honest feeling unit. And my tiny Asian wife has no issue with the steering weight of either car, so I don't quite get why some of you big American guys complain about parking lot maneuvers.

bimmerjph · 04-08-2012, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Propagator

I agree that the E90 steering is heavy, but the steering in my wife's first generation TSX is not THAT much lighter. It's not quite as precise, but it still is a very nicely engineered, honest feeling unit. And my tiny Asian wife has no issue with the steering weight of either car, so I don't quite get why some of you big American guys complain about parking lot maneuvers.

No, I am not complaining. I love the E90's steering. I just hadn't ever driven a car with heavy steering before then.

sle39lvr · 04-09-2012, 01:41 AM

My verdict on 3 series:
Starting with the E30, it keeps getting bland with every generation. E90 still had some magic left. After that, most of it is gone...

Adriansideways · 04-09-2012, 02:05 AM

Dissagree although electric steering is not ideal for feel you get used to it. The neutral handling and balance is more important to the caracter of the car. Its the best 3 yet IMO! A pearler of a gearbox espesially the auto!

Adriansideways · 04-09-2012, 02:08 AM

The best steering feel you will get is from a P 911, and even that in its latest incarnation gets electric steering!

asus389 · 04-09-2012, 02:46 AM

Did anyone ever see C&D complain about the tires on the e90? I don't think I ever did. It makes me wonder because the tires on the e90 were pretty awful, especially in the first couple years. Noisy, vibration, uneven wear, hard as rocks.. etc. Maybe they just don't have the test cars long enough for these issues to become apparent.

Bowser330 · 04-09-2012, 08:50 AM

Do you guys think there are enough people who buy mods to warrant an article on a comparison of cars with 2000$, the big mags won't do it but maybe a smaller one would?

Reason is I don't care if the oem tires are shitty I'm buying new tires anyway, also I would like to compare the cars tuned. BMS already had a preliminary tune for the N20, I want to know how that accelerates past a tuned A4 or S60 or C250....anyone else?

Michael Schott · 04-09-2012, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asus389

Did anyone ever see C&D complain about the tires on the e90? I don't think I ever did. It makes me wonder because the tires on the e90 were pretty awful, especially in the first couple years. Noisy, vibration, uneven wear, hard as rocks.. etc. Maybe they just don't have the test cars long enough for these issues to become apparent.

Car and Driver has complained a number of times about RFT's on BMW's including the e90.

E90 Skye · 04-09-2012, 10:10 AM

tires make such a big difference that I'm fairly certain this F30 will perform much better if setup with similar summer max performance tires as some of the other cars in this test had, or heck even with a set of the RE050A's that used to come with the E90 would increase the performance margin, especially road feel/braking.
The difference between an average all-season tire and a decent max summer tire is staggering. transformed my e90 just as much as changing my suspension bits did.

tony20009 · 04-09-2012, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E36toF30

It's annoying that BMW is fitting those crappy all-season tires. Still, it sounds like essentially all their gripes with the car are due to the tires. They even said the 335i they drove earlier had sportier tires and (as a result, apparently) better steering feel.

They fitted all season tires on the E90 328i as well, at least so long as one didn't choose the M-Sport Package, or the Sport Package and elect performance tires.

sali · 04-09-2012, 12:45 PM

When I was shopping for car in 2008, I drove 328i, A4, C350 and G35.

My final two were G35 and 328i. I did another test drive and ended with up 328i due to the heavy/direct steering feedback even though the Infiniti had more toys for the buck.

BMW should have offered hydraulic steering in sports line version but instead decided to cut production costs by having all electric steering and become new "Lexus".

Michael Schott · 04-09-2012, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sali

When I was shopping for car in 2008, I drove 328i, A4, C350 and G35.

My final two were G35 and 328i. I did another test drive and ended with up 328i due to the heavy/direct steering feedback even though the Infiniti had more toys for the buck.

BMW should have offered hydraulic steering in sports line version but instead decided to cut production costs by having all electric steering and become new "Lexus".

The new "Lexus"? C'mon. BMW can't do as you ask because the EPS is an element of the corporate fuel economy measurements that they need.

justinnum1 · 04-09-2012, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sali

When I was shopping for car in 2008, I drove 328i, A4, C350 and G35.

My final two were G35 and 328i. I did another test drive and ended with up 328i due to the heavy/direct steering feedback even though the Infiniti had more toys for the buck.

BMW should have offered hydraulic steering in sports line version but instead decided to cut production costs by having all electric steering and become new "Lexus".

what? even bmw's eps shits on lexus's...lexus eps is made for old women...
have you ever driven a lexus?

sali · 04-09-2012, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justinnum1

what? even bmw's eps shits on lexus's...lexus eps is made for old women...
have you ever driven a lexus?

Maybe the old Lexus but the new GS350 eps pissed over the new 535i with sports package in terms of feedback and driving fun inspite of being a better looking car than the Lexus.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...luxury_sedans/

Michael Schott · 04-09-2012, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sali

Maybe the old Lexus but the new GS350 eps pissed over the new 535i with sports package in terms of feedback and driving fun inspite of being a better looking car than the Lexus.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...luxury_sedans/

So it would be good if BMW moved in the Lexus direction.

justinnum1 · 04-09-2012, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sali

Maybe the old Lexus but the new GS350 eps pissed over the new 535i with sports package in terms of feedback and driving fun inspite of being a better looking car than the Lexus.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...luxury_sedans/

Sorry but i dont read to much into someone elses opinion when it comes to steering feel, i have to drive it my self, and i will say i have yet to drive the new gs

Propagator · 04-09-2012, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sali

Maybe the old Lexus but the new GS350 eps pissed over the new 535i with sports package in terms of feedback and driving fun inspite of being a better looking car than the Lexus.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...luxury_sedans/

I have a sneaking suspicion that Motortrend doesn't really know what they are talking about when it comes to steering.

They said the F30 had the "best" steering among the competitors. Then they called the steering in the F10 "engaging". In the same test, they said the Lexus had a "balanced, communicative, properly weighted" steering.

All of these are pretty much the opposite of what C&D said about these cars. So who's right? I don't know, but I personally find it hard to believe that after all the complaints, not just from mags but also from the actual owners, the F10 has an "engaging" steering. Furthermore, I find it very hard to believe that after decades of making the most wooden and lifeless steering system, Toyota suddenly figured out a way to make a truly communicative EPS system.

I do like the new GS, however.

justinnum1 · 04-09-2012, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Propagator

I have a sneaking suspicion that Motortrend doesn't really know what they are talking about when it comes to steering.

They said the F30 had the "best" steering among the competitors. Then they called the steering in the F10 "engaging". In the same test, they said the Lexus had a "balanced, communicative, properly weighted" steering.

All of these are pretty much the opposite of what C&D said about these cars. So who's right? I don't know, but I personally find it hard to believe that after all the complaints, not just from mags but also from the actual owners, the F10 has an "engaging" steering. Furthermore, I find it very hard to believe that after decades of making the most wooden and lifeless steering system, Toyota suddenly figured out a way to make a truly communicative EPS system.

I do like the new GS, however.

the f30 does have the best steering among the compoetition, might not be as good as the e90 was but its still better than C class, a4, IS, G....

Propagator · 04-09-2012, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justinnum1

the f30 does have the best steering among the compoetition, might not be as good as the e90 was but its still better than C class, a4, IS, G....

Yes, you might be right, although C&D preferred the G on steering.

I still find it a bit suspect that the GS has such a great steering. It's certainly a far cry from C&D's assessment, which was, "Memo to Lexus: Round up GS steering engineers; reassign all to corporate carwash duty."

At the very least this reminds me how subjective all this talk about steering is. I guess the reason that I tend to trust C&D on this is because their opinion on steering has proven to be very similar to my own preference in the past. But again, that is very subjective.

e92_m3 · 04-09-2012, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doublevanosrc

I hope BMW is listening to all these numb steering complaints, they are coming from everyone. Hopefully a steering update will come soon similar to the 2000-2001 E46 3 series update.

+1!

I have to agree with you on that one!

Propagator · 04-09-2012, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by e92_m3

+1!

I have to agree with you on that one!

In fact, it would be interesting to find out what percentage of those F30 owners who also owned an E90 would prefer to have an E90-esque hydraulic steering on their F30 over the current EPS. Would it be more than half?

04-08-2012, 06:02 PM	#67
ATX78703 Captain Drives: 2011 328i Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 765 iTrader: (0)	All this talk about tires, i was looking at the pix of that concept M135i and it has Michelin PSS's... freakin awesome. __________________ 2011 X5 xDrive 35i Premium - 8AT, Cnv, Tch, 3rd Row, Cmfrt 2011 328i 4dr, 6MT - Sprt, Prm, Cmfrt

04-09-2012, 10:10 AM	#76
E90 Skye Lieutenant Drives: 2006 330i Jet Black Join Date: May 2009 Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 445 iTrader: (1)	tires make such a big difference that I'm fairly certain this F30 will perform much better if setup with similar summer max performance tires as some of the other cars in this test had, or heck even with a set of the RE050A's that used to come with the E90 would increase the performance margin, especially road feel/braking. The difference between an average all-season tire and a decent max summer tire is staggering. transformed my e90 just as much as changing my suspension bits did. __________________ 2006 Jet Black 330i \| Premium Package \| ZF AT \| LUX 4.0 \| Jlevi M3 Front Bumper \| CF Mtech spoiler \| Gloss Black Grill \| Msport wheel \| Blacklines \| Koni FSD + Eibach Pro-kit \| BMS PBX

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04-09-2012, 01:41 AM	#70
sle39lvr First Lieutenant Drives: 08 328i Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: United States Posts: 396 iTrader: (3)	My verdict on 3 series: Starting with the E30, it keeps getting bland with every generation. E90 still had some magic left. After that, most of it is gone...

04-09-2012, 02:05 AM	#71
Adriansideways Private First Class Drives: 2008 E90 M3 Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Pretoria Posts: 154 iTrader: (0)	Dissagree although electric steering is not ideal for feel you get used to it. The neutral handling and balance is more important to the caracter of the car. Its the best 3 yet IMO! A pearler of a gearbox espesially the auto!

04-09-2012, 02:08 AM	#72
Adriansideways Private First Class Drives: 2008 E90 M3 Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Pretoria Posts: 154 iTrader: (0)	The best steering feel you will get is from a P 911, and even that in its latest incarnation gets electric steering!

04-09-2012, 02:46 AM	#73
asus389 Lieutenant Drives: 06 E90 325i Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 412 iTrader: (0) Garage List 2006 BMW 325i [0.00]	Did anyone ever see C&D complain about the tires on the e90? I don't think I ever did. It makes me wonder because the tires on the e90 were pretty awful, especially in the first couple years. Noisy, vibration, uneven wear, hard as rocks.. etc. Maybe they just don't have the test cars long enough for these issues to become apparent.

04-09-2012, 08:50 AM	#74
Bowser330 Captain Drives: E92 335i Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Socal Posts: 603 iTrader: (0)	Do you guys think there are enough people who buy mods to warrant an article on a comparison of cars with 2000$, the big mags won't do it but maybe a smaller one would? Reason is I don't care if the oem tires are shitty I'm buying new tires anyway, also I would like to compare the cars tuned. BMS already had a preliminary tune for the N20, I want to know how that accelerates past a tuned A4 or S60 or C250....anyone else?

04-09-2012, 12:45 PM	#78
sali Private First Class Drives: 2011 535i / 2012 Jaguar XJ SC Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: NYC Posts: 116 iTrader: (0)	When I was shopping for car in 2008, I drove 328i, A4, C350 and G35. My final two were G35 and 328i. I did another test drive and ended with up 328i due to the heavy/direct steering feedback even though the Infiniti had more toys for the buck. BMW should have offered hydraulic steering in sports line version but instead decided to cut production costs by having all electric steering and become new "Lexus".