[Feanor]

Originally Posted by Casper

I'm not surmising any more than the posters stating global warming is a fact.

Yes you are - there is scientific evidence for global warming, whether or not you agree with that evidence. There's no evidence other than your gut feeling that any saving achieved through ASS is less than the environmental cost of replacing parts more often. I don't want to get drawn into a wider discussion on the evidence for global warming as it's a side issue and will bog the entire thread down (I'm happy to discuss it in general, I just know for experience the subject will take the thread over for page after page).

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Maybe I missed something in this thread but the Wikipedia article specifically mentions a certain type of battery wearing out in a year. The batteries used by most companies are not that kind of battery.

My wife drives a 2010 Honda Insight hybrid and in 2.5 years of ownership there is no sigh that the batteries are failing.

Originally Posted by Casper

Well there's difference with the Insight. The 13 HP integrated electric motor starts the engine, not a tradditional starter motor and the Insight's battery is a bit more powerful than a lead-acid auto battery.

My 118D is now two years old and is still automatically stopping and starting absolutely fine.

Originally Posted by SomeRandomer123

OMG Milton Keynes drives me mad!! It's just roundabout after bloody roundabout!!!!!!

Hehe yeah... MK is a pain for visitors to find their way around without satnavs, but living there is easy as getting around is so efficient - there's hardly any traffic jams because the roundabouts deal with traffic flow so efficiently and any jams caused by accidents etc can be easily avoided thanks to the grid system. Also when the traffic is flowing most of the roundabouts are so big you can go into them at 40mph if you don't have to stop!

[Alpine F31]

Maybe someone has already mentioned this, but how hard would it be to modify the button so that it is always "off"?

I defeated my "daytime running lights" this way.

Is that too simple of a solution?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Feanor

Yes you are - there is scientific evidence for global warming, whether or not you agree with that evidence. There's no evidence that any saving achieved through ASS is less than the environmental cost of replacing parts more often, other than your gut feeling. I'm not going to get drawn into a wider discussion on global warming as it's a side issue.

Yes, you're correct, I should have been more specific. When it comes to arguing about global warming it comes down to whether human activities are adding to the effect. Yes there is scientific evidence that global warming exists (melting of the last ice age and the U.S. Great Lakes is evidence). So to be clear I was speaking about there is no scientific evidence that anthropomorphic global warming exists. You said earlier there are people who don't care how they leave the Earth for their children and Grandchildren. Well based on the predictions I've read, the great warming catastrophe won't happen for a few thousands of years. You're decedents won't even know who you are...

[Elk]

There is a great deal of evidence of anthropogenic impacts on global warming - as there is of a round earth, evolution and other scientific, objectively-based conclusions.

However, I also want to avoid a general discussion of these matters as they are political, rather than objective. One can typically accurately predict the political beliefs of the speaker based on whether ot not he accepts anthropogenic effects on global warming.

More importantly, I mention this as much of the debate regarding ASS is similar - based on individual beliefs rather than objective evidence.

[Weaselboy]

Reading this thread prompted me to go pop the battery cover off my F30 and look at the battery.

The battery is a black case, so I assume from previous models this means it is an AGM battery and not conventional lead-acid. The label says the battery has 900CCA, as opposed to the the 750CCA of the E90/E92.

[Raspartan]

Originally Posted by Alpine F31

Maybe someone has already mentioned this, but how hard would it be to modify the button so that it is always "off"?

I defeated my "daytime running lights" this way.

Is that too simple of a solution?

There must be a simple electronic way to do this. Some kind of timer and relay perhaps.

[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Let's get over this is a BMW thing, it isn't, here in the UK many vehicles have some version of an "idle-off" device. New models are having them fitted, as ASS is a key fuel saver for urban driving.

BTW, there are many serious studies on the fuel savings of idle-off devices, the same as there are for savings from use of electic power steering, electric coolant pumps etc., etc. All serious stuff from the key motoring research institutions around the world. The one I referenced is available for reading. It's over 80 pages and is a policy review of many other studies/data including from the EPA.

TECHNOLOGY AND POLICIES TO IMPROVE VEHICLE IN-USE FUEL ECONOMY – ISBN 92-821-0343-9 - © ECMT, 2005

Incidentally I've just googled "idling engines" and the very first page I brought up, (so no cherry picking) is the following, with a document attached.

So NYC have 'idling' waste, and the document/report covers in light weight detail, most of the issues involved.

http://www.edf.org/transportation/reports/idling

http://www.edf.org/sites/default/fil...where_2009.pdf

So much for Europe 'inflicting' unwanted devices on the US... seems at least NYC want them.

HighlandPete

You do know that the NYC mayor who introduced the 'idling' waste law, has special permission to let his car idle, and also wants to paint the roofs of all NYC buildings white?

[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by Feanor

As has been said, pretty much every Euro manufacturer DOES have it on their cars now, and many non-Euro manufacturers are following suite. It'd be useful to know more about the cicumstances of the IEA's study and the sort of driving that gave them the improvement, sure, but the IEA isn't the sort of body to comission biased studies.

Yes, the discussion is about disabling it by default, but you're the one who asked for evidence that ASS provides fuel savings so don't be surprised that people are posting up evidence that savings ARE produced.



Correct. Noone knows either way. Noone knows whether Active Suspension, Active Headlights or the new N20 engine will break in 5 or 6 years' time and cost a lot of money to fix. It's relatively new technology and we won't know whether it lasts 10 years until its 10 years old. My point is that people are only making up worries about the reliability of ASS because they don't like it, not because they have a genuine concern with the technology based on any knowledge or research. They like the other stuff though so miraculously those things aren't worth worrying about.



Wow...

You asked to be shown a link showing a 1mpg fuel saving from ASS. You've just been shown three seperate sources, two of which were links, that indicate even greater fuel savings from the system. But despite being shown the evidence you asked for, that evidence still isn't good enough for you! I'll concede the studies aren't rock solid proof as we don't know enough about how they were conducted. But they're enough to show that fuel savings are a distinct possibility, even a likelihood.

So, why is the idea that a system that may save fuel may also reduce pollution "ridiculous"? If it saves fuel, it reduces pollution. Surely that's self-evident and obvious. Debating with you is like debating with a religious extremist - you don't seem to want to allow facts to get in the way of your preconceived world view.



I have no contention with allowing US cars to deactivate the system by default if that's allowed under US law and it wouldn't invalidate the EPA ratings, which like it or not many people use as their main comparator even when choosing performance cars in the US - so if ASS is needed for the EPA ratings then I'm afraid market pressure is against your views whether you like it or not.

If it's not needed for the EPA rating then so many Americans couldn't give a stuff about the world that our children and grandchildren will have to live in that I'm not sure it's a good idea for European car firms to force fuel saving features onto the American market until it also becomes an American requirement.



Personally, one of the reasons why I drive BMWs is that they are the best of all worlds. They're both fun to drive AND efficient. BMW has even won the award as most sustainable car manufacturer of the year for the 6th year running. The world has changed, customer demand has changed, and BMW, as with any successful company, has changed with it. Get used to it.



+1.

I find it odd that someone who doesn't want our way of life to destroy the surroundings we depend on for life is a "crazy".

I also don't see why we either have to be concerned about minimising pollution and therefore go back to living in mud huts, or why by driving a BMW we shouldn't care at all. There is a middle way that doesn't entail either crazy extreme, and that's supporting measures to minimise waste. A few percent fuel saving for all new cars would add up to a HUGE reduction in emissions.

So many quotes, I don't know which ones to respond to.
1) All studies are unsubstantiated - just like most Global Warming studies, as far as it is man made
2) This car has a 33mpg highway rating with a 2.0L engine - what exactly does ASS help it achieve?
3) BMW owners do care for not causing additional pollution, but as you conveniently misunderstand/ignore my posts, its hard to make you understand that most BMW owners are not greenies who would give the pleasure of driving up to cater to as yet unproven man made global warming theories.

[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by micknugget

Respecting the person's choice? You have the choice to push the off button. What about the choice of parents wanting a better and cleaner world for their kids? What about this person's choice about wanted less dependance on foreign oil. We really are becoming a bunch of spoiled shits. We crap on our planet and don't care. Our cars are much faster than those 20 years ago.....10 years ago....even 5 years ago and yet economy really hasn't improved at the same pace. There are CAFE standard in the US and BMW is working hard to meet those upcoming standards. Global warming is real. That is an unequivocal fact. The question is how much we are adding to it and how much of it is a natural warming/cooling cycle. It is prudent to preserve our resources and work to keep our planet in better condition, for ourselves and our kids. This doesn't mean that you have to buy a Prius or a Nissan Leaf but having A.S.S as standard and trying to get people to use it is a good thing. Every little bit helps.

And the "it's my money" argument is as lame as it gets. By that methodology, the rich shouldn't have to follow any rules because, hey, it's their money and they should be able to do whatever they want. Sad.

So ASS is going to give our children a better world to live in? You are funny.

[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by shoptb

With all due respect, I just don't understand this mentality. I was born in the United States, live in the United States, but I feel saddened that there's this absolute reticence to cooperate with anyone else. The environment is not ours/yours to pollute. Why wouldn't you want to try and make things better for our children/grandchildren? I guess I've always aligned with the Jeep saying 'Tread Lightly'...this earth is ours to protect and revere, not to destroy and pollute. It's a responsibility as humans, and I for one, am glad that our government is finally taking part in that responsibility.

No need to be saddened - all we are asking for is a way to keep the system disabled for those buyers who want to. Why spin it in a different direction?

[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I know you don't like the system but you are in denial about its fuel economy benefits and how CAFE regulations work. If you don't like the fuel economy features on the F30 get an E90.

Already have an E90

I have nothing against the system, though I don't particularly care for it. I just want a way to be able to disable in such a way that it stays disabled. I also have a Mercedes E350, and the transmission in it defaults to Comfort each time you start it, while I want to drive in Sport (button settings). Its a pain, and I see the same happening to me in an F30 - therefore the resistance.

[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by SCBimmerKid

Every one I've driven has been very smooth on the upstart, and I think the stallings are isolated events, and shouldn't be attributed to the technology, but rather a couple cars that are having problems.

One thing is pretty clear - a lot of owners are having the stutter problem. I think this is more visible in non hybrid cars, because unlike hybrids, there isn't an electric motor that will move the car off while the IC engine restarts.

[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by SomeRandomer123

Has anybody tried holding the ASS putton?
Wouldn't that be hilarious if that permanently disabled it!

[Just a 3]

Originally Posted by Casper

I'm not surmising any more than the posters stating global warming is a fact. They quote insignificant rises (or falls) in average temperatures in some parts of world and listen to Government-funded scientists, who can only suggest increases in average mean temperatures based on prediction models, and say it's based on fact. These Posters are quoting temperature rises and storm severity based on only a few hundred years of measured and recorded data, when the global weather history is over 4 Billion years old.

My personal qualifications is working in the manufacturing business for the last 25 years and understanding the concept of mean time between failures. My point, buy the way is was written, is easily discerned as opinion since the F30 has been in production for only 8 months and there is no data history to show the starters are failing at an abnormal rate. Time will tell. Just because other European cars have been using the technology doesn't mean BMW's application will be just as reliable. The N54 HPFP is a case in point. Many Manufacturers build high-pressure fuel systems (diesels come to mind) and have high reliability; BMW doesn't.

The point being the ASS may save fuel resources at the point of propulshion of an individual car, but if it needs to be replaced several times, the resources to manufacture and distribute it offset any savings, be they environmental impact or financial.

+1

For the Global Warming believers, their opinion, however unsubstantiated, is fact, while those that don't buy into it, there's is opinion, and that too uneducated and stupid.

[Feanor]

Originally Posted by Just a 3

+1

For the Global Warming believers, their opinion, however unsubstantiated, is fact, while those that don't buy into it, there's is opinion, and that too uneducated and stupid.

Global warming is fact - hardly any skeptics deny that any more, there's just too much evidence.

What the skeptics deny is that it's caused by human activity - which is why most people here, if not everyone, have been careful to only refer to global warming as being fact, and not anthropogenic global warming as being fact. The two are very different.

Don't get me wrong - as someone said there is a huge amount of evidence for anthropogenic global warming but I've had enough discussions with skeptics to know that it's just not worth going there.

[Casper]

If you truly want to educate yourself on anthropogenic global warming please read some of the books by Patrick Michaels from the University of Virginia. You may form a different opinion or at least consider an alternative perspective.

The problem is the "facts" that what you all state are not facts, but merely supposition based on incomplete and unachievable research and climate modeling. The simple view of the anthropogenic global warming believers is they point to recent weather events such as hurricanes and tornado activity and measured temperatures over the past 100 hundred years or so, and say they are above "average". However, no one can truly point to what "average" is on the scale of how the climate works over time. It's easy to believe because the storms make headlines and are propagated by the Weather Channel to sell advertizing. The devastation looks horrible, unless there are no houses and people, to be affected by it. No one can say how fierce the storm activity was in Oklahoma 5,000 years ago, because there is no recorded history. Saying this month's weather in the mid-West is the worst ever is merely a guess and not a fact. It’s easy to predict the end of the world when you will not be around to see it.

Patrick Michaels, who is a climatologist, goes back in time through core sample from lakes and other geological evidence to try to validate climate models and finds the models are not accurate predicting tools. It's not just a simple as that statement, but really take time to get a different point of view, from a scientist, and make up your own mind. Considering the scale of how the planet operates, and the affect the sun has on the climate, it is not possible to accurately point to human activity as significantly changing weather patterns of the earth. The climate of the earth is going to change whether that change is good or bad and the severity of it is affect by me driving my Hummer, is impossible to quantify and predict.

It is a serious issue because Governments can create fear in their populations and justify to themselves to create law that drives social activity and thus population control. We end up with stupid buttons on dash boards that are required deactivate annoying start stop functions. All from a company that builds 560 HP overweight, bloated, SUVs.

I ask that you consider the point that if start-stop is such a good idea, good for the planet, and crucial for the F30 to achieve its EPA fuel mileage rating, why is it even deactivate-able at all? Why not just make it as a standard operation of the driveline as much as ABS is an undefeatable part of the braking system?

[micknugget]

Originally Posted by Casper

If you truly want to educate yourself on anthropogenic global warming please read some of the books by Patrick Michaels from the University of Virginia. You may form a different opinion or at least consider an alternative perspective.

The problem is the "facts" that what you all state are not facts, but merely supposition based on incomplete and unachievable research and climate modeling. The simple view of the anthropogenic global warming believers is they point to recent weather events such as hurricanes and tornado activity and measured temperatures over the past 100 hundred years or so, and say they are above "average". However, no one can truly point to what "average" is on the scale of how the climate works over time. It's easy to believe because the storms make headlines and are propagated by the Weather Channel to sell advertizing. The devastation looks horrible, unless there are no houses and people, to be affected by it. No one can say how fierce the storm activity was in Oklahoma 5,000 years ago, because there is no recorded history. Saying this month's weather in the mid-West is the worst ever is merely a guess and not a fact. It’s easy to predict the end of the world when you will not be around to see it.

Patrick Michaels, who is a climatologist, goes back in time through core sample from lakes and other geological evidence to try to validate climate models and finds the models are not accurate predicting tools. It's not just a simple as that statement, but really take time to get a different point of view, from a scientist, and make up your own mind. Considering the scale of how the planet operates, and the affect the sun has on the climate, it is not possible to accurately point to human activity as significantly changing weather patterns of the earth. The climate of the earth is going to change whether that change is good or bad and the severity of it is affect by me driving my Hummer, is impossible to quantify and predict.

It is a serious issue because Governments can create fear in their populations and justify to themselves to create law that drives social activity and thus population control. We end up with stupid buttons on dash boards that are required deactivate annoying start stop functions. All from a company that builds 560 HP overweight, bloated, SUVs.

I ask that you consider the point that if start-stop is such a good idea, good for the planet, and crucial for the F30 to achieve its EPA fuel mileage rating, why is it even deactivate-able at all? Why not just make it as a standard operation of the driveline as much as ABS is an undefeatable part of the braking system?

Again you are right.....and wrong. You are right in that the facts about global warming are incomplete because we cannot look back at the weather/temperatures much past a couple hundred years. You are alos right in that fact that we can't really tell whta kind of impact humans have on the climate.

Where you are wrong is to use the above information to dismiss global warming in it's entirety. FACT: In the last hundred years the average temperature hs risen. FACT: As the temperature rises, storms become more frequent and more severe.

Based on the limited information that we have, global warming appears to be real although I do not think it is nearly as bad as many scientists would like to scare us into believing. I think much of it has to do with a natural cycle. We should however still take steps to address the situation by offering people the ability to do so. This also helps us to preserve our non-renwable resources. There is where A.S.S. comes in. Although it is unclear how it affects gas mileage, it does reduce emissions. Being causious and prudent in this case does far more good than harm and even if it is proven that global warming is no big deal, we will still have benfitted in our actions. You buy house insurance on the outside chance that your house may burn down. The odds of that happening are very small but in the end, the minor cost (relative) and piece of mind make it well worth it.

[mohrgan]

Originally Posted by Just a 3

+1

For the Global Warming believers, their opinion, however unsubstantiated, is fact, while those that don't buy into it, there's is opinion, and that too uneducated and stupid.

Excellent post!

[Mrcarcrazy]

how quickly we get off topic. nasty dinosaur farts will screw up any good convo.

Back to the start/stop. I suspect that in time (assuming you cannot disable it via OEM tools) that there will be a "fix" from the aftermarket in a year or less. It shouldn't be hard to wire in a fix.

[shoptb]

Originally Posted by Mrcarcrazy

Back to the start/stop. I suspect that in time (assuming you cannot disable it via OEM tools) that there will be a "fix" from the aftermarket in a year or less. It shouldn't be hard to wire in a fix.

One can "fix" it right now if you want to educate yourself on coding your BMW. Or you can mess around with the wiring via aftermarket tools, as you suggested. Either route will be unsupported by BMW and you will have to deal with the service/warranty repercussions of such actions. It's all up to the individual owner!

[shoptb]

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by Just a 3

So ASS is going to give our children a better world to live in? You are funny.

That's not what he said and you know it. The point is we can't go on wasting resources like we have for the last century without consequences. Stop/start is one of the myriad devices that we need to use less fuel and of course part of BMW's Efficient Dynamics technology which is a response to CAFE and European standards.