[GoingTooFast]

[Year's_End]

Are you paid to promote this car?

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

Did the Exiges/Elises oversteer then?! Have you ever driven an equally lightweight front engine (rwd) car to really compare?!




There's nothing like the throttle response from a good NA engine... either driven by wire or otherwise.

If you drive a Z3 M Coupe you should know what I'm talking about...

Light front wheel drive cars? Do Spec Miatae, Caterhams and race prepped E21's count? All are near or lighter than an Elise/Exige, and all had more inherent understeer than the Lotii or a Cayman. The Caterhams can certainly snap into oversteer in a hurry, but tend to naturally push.

The only front engine car I've driven that has the natural balance of a rear/mid engine car is the FD RX-7, but getting a piston motor to have that sort of rearward bias and low center of gravity isn't really feasible. The first gen S2000 was very close and had natural oversteer in lots of conditions, so hopefully the Toyobaru will at least be close to the feel of that car, but I doubt it, Toyota is far too cautious to put something out with natural oversteer, and every past Subaru product has had nearly terminal understeer.

[colatkitty]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Light front wheel drive cars? Do Spec Miatae, Caterhams and race prepped E21's count? All are near or lighter than an Elise/Exige, and all had more inherent understeer than the Lotii or a Cayman. The Caterhams can certainly snap into oversteer in a hurry, but tend to naturally push.

The only front engine car I've driven that has the natural balance of a rear/mid engine car is the FD RX-7, but getting a piston motor to have that sort of rearward bias and low center of gravity isn't really feasible. The first gen S2000 was very close and had natural oversteer in lots of conditions, so hopefully the Toyobaru will at least be close to the feel of that car, but I doubt it, Toyota is far too cautious to put something out with natural oversteer, and every past Subaru product has had nearly terminal understeer.

I've been lurking in this thread for a while, since I'm seriously considering purchasing the FRS/BRZ as a replacement for my S2K as a track car.

I believe that any well balanced FR car can be made to behave and feel the way you want it to (either understeer, neutral, or oversteer) at the limit by suspension tuning, wheel/tire selection, and proper use of aero.

From all of the reviews we've see so far for the FRS/BRZ, it looks like the car has tons of potential and will definitely be a good base to start from. I don't think I'll be disappointed in making the switch.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by colatkitty

From all of the reviews we've see so far for the FRS/BRZ, it looks like the car has tons of potential and will definitely be a good base to start from. I don't think I'll be disappointed in making the switch.

Agreed, and I do find it a little odd that all of the show and test cars have had 215 A/S tires. I'd imagine some of this is to more easily expose the limits of the car to the journalists currently driving them, but if they come equipped this way, a quick tire change would probably be money well spent.

Good article, that confirms Prius tires(!?):
http://www.insideline.com/scion/fr-s...dont-know.html

[colatkitty]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Agreed, and I do find it a little odd that all of the show and test cars have had 215 A/S tires. I'd imagine some of this is to more easily expose the limits of the car to the journalists currently driving them, but if they come equipped this way, a quick tire change would probably be money well spent.

^^^Well said. This is another reason why I'm excited about this car and the potential that it has. The car is still able to perform/grip relatively well and provide good feedback even with crappy Prius tires. Imagine what it will be able to do with just a set of better tires!

I plan on doing much more than just tires though.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Agreed, and I do find it a little odd that all of the show and test cars have had 215 A/S tires. I'd imagine some of this is to more easily expose the limits of the car to the journalists currently driving them, but if they come equipped this way, a quick tire change would probably be money well spent.

Good article, that confirms Prius tires(!?):
http://www.insideline.com/scion/fr-s...dont-know.html

I'm not even sure if I'd want to swap out the tires for a higher grip compound. I'd have more fun with the lower limit, progressively sliding OEM kicks in most situations. If I owned this car, the tires would only be swapped out for a stickier set if I went at the engine and brakes to keep everything in line.

In the few years that I've owned my E92, I honestly had more fun in my hooning situations when I tried out the not-so-high-performance General Exclaim UHPs; getting the tail out required very little throttle and the speeds that it took place were far more sane than what the stock tires allow. The lack of grip did present some safety hazards and became occasionally frustrating, however.

[Year's_End]

I can imagine how impressive this cars braking distances would be with a set of sticky tires.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Year's_End

I'm not even sure if I'd want to swap out the tires for a higher grip compound. I'd have more fun with the lower limit, progressively sliding OEM kicks in most situations. If I owned this car, the tires would only be swapped out for a stickier set if I went at the engine and brakes to keep everything in line.

In the few years that I've owned my E92, I honestly had more fun in my hooning situations when I tried out the not-so-high-performance General Exclaim UHPs; getting the tail out required very little throttle and the speeds that it took place were far more sane than what the stock tires allow. The lack of grip did present some safety hazards and became occasionally frustrating, however.

I do agree, I went to progressively more and more grippy tires on my old Miata and while it made for better track times, it was less fun to daily drive with each improvement in tires. It takes a certain amount of bravery and belief in your product to knowingly offer it with sub standard parts that will hurt it in magazine and paper tests, but make it more enjoyable to the actual owners.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Year's_End

Are you paid to promote this car?

As much as you are paid to promote Jeremy Clarkson and the SLS.

Man, I wish we could have more cars like this Toyobaru... the world would certainly be a better place to live in.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by colatkitty

I believe that any well balanced FR car can be made to behave and feel the way you want it to (either understeer, neutral, or oversteer) at the limit by suspension tuning, wheel/tire selection, and proper use of aero.

Yes. But my point is when the car is so well balanced you can do it ONLY with the throttle!

Got it?!

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

Yes. But my point is when the car is so well balanced you can do it ONLY with the throttle!

Got it?!

I hope you're right, but suspect you're putting too much faith in things. I had these feelings about the original 986 Boxster with the 2.5l, which oddly enough had 200 hp, ran a 6.9 0-60 weighed about the same as the 86 and had almost no ability to be steered with the throttle.

It took power upgrades to make it possible. Of course it also came with massively better tires than this thing is coming with, so perhaps there's hope in stock form. It will be interesting to see what tires Subaru uses, as they're already using different suspension tuning.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Light front wheel drive cars? Do Spec Miatae, Caterhams and race prepped E21's count? All are near or lighter than an Elise/Exige, and all had more inherent understeer than the Lotii or a Cayman. The Caterhams can certainly snap into oversteer in a hurry, but tend to naturally push.

Elise/Exige they naturally understeer at the limit and with the Caterham you certainly can dictate its behaviour only with the throttle the problem is, as you say, they snap into oversteer in a hurry - not the most balanced of cars.

My Cayman (2.9L and 265hp) understeers heavily because it's underpowered - the chassis is so good that it could cope with a lot more power - and to make things worse it doesn't have LSD, therefore I can't dictate its behaviour only with the throttle I need to trail brake of left-foot brake in order to bring the nose into the corner.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

As much as you are paid to promote Jeremy Clarkson and the SLS.

Man, I wish we could have more cars like this Toyobaru... the world would certainly be a better place to live in.

You don't see me posting strictly about an SLS (or even at all), now do you? Just find it curious that this is the only thing you're posting about on this site.

Then again, everyone has their favorites.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

My Cayman (2.9L and 265hp) understeers heavily because it's underpowered - the chassis is so good that it could cope with a lot more power - and to make things worse it doesn't have LSD, therefore I can't dictate its behaviour only with the throttle I need to trail brake of left-foot brake in order to bring the nose into the corner.

Interesting, as the Exige I've driven had limited slip and actually tended to understeer more than the Elises without one. It could carry more speed and was certainly friendly on tires, but just roasting the inside tire seemed more effective for keeping the Elises pointed where you wanted. I do find that the Lotus would oversteer at the limit at speed, mainly due to the short wheelbase. They certainly do understeer at lower speeds and with the engine off boil though.

I do think that the Cayman/Boxster platform is more naturally balanced, and the power delivery is certainly more accessible than the Lotus.

[GoingTooFast]

Moreover, with the Elise/Exige if you lift-off to try to compensate for the understeer they will likely snap into oversteer in a hurry, just like the Caterham.

The only difference is that with the latter you get power oversteer whereas with the former you get lift-off oversteer but neither of them have a progressive breakaway because they aren't the most balanced of cars.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Year's_End

You don't see me posting strictly about an SLS (or even at all), now do you? Just find it curious that this is the only thing you're posting about on this site.

Then again, everyone has their favorites.

Ironically, I was banned from the 1M forum remember?!... Toyobaru is the next fascinating thing I feel like talkin' about while I'm waiting for my 1M to arrive.

It was a close toss-up between the two. But I needed the bigger rear space.


PS: A picture is worth a thousand words!

[colatkitty]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I hope you're right, but suspect you're putting too much faith in things. I had these feelings about the original 986 Boxster with the 2.5l, which oddly enough had 200 hp, ran a 6.9 0-60 weighed about the same as the 86 and had almost no ability to be steered with the throttle.

It took power upgrades to make it possible. Of course it also came with massively better tires than this thing is coming with, so perhaps there's hope in stock form. It will be interesting to see what tires Subaru uses, as they're already using different suspension tuning.

I hear what you are saying about the original Boxster, my brother has one, and I have tracked it a few times. It doesn't come with a LSD and most of the weight is on the back end, thus no ability to steer with the throttle.

I don't think a light weight car such as the FSR requires that much power in order to steer with the throttle, even with wider/much stickier tires. You won't have the power do be doing big smokey power oversteers, but you should still be able to steer with the throttle at the limit of adhesion, albeit at a much faster speed. I am able to do so in my s2k even with 255 NT01's all around.

[GoingTooFast]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Agreed, and I do find it a little odd that all of the show and test cars have had 215 A/S tires. I'd imagine some of this is to more easily expose the limits of the car to the journalists currently driving them, but if they come equipped this way, a quick tire change would probably be money well spent.

No, quite the contrary actually! As Year's_End has already pointed out the narrower rubber makes for VERY progressive breakaway characteristics.

In fact, it's not only the cheer grip we should be looking for in a tire... for a dd the most important thing is its breakaway characteristics. A tire should be predictable and if then you can add the grip you've found the best tire possible. It will always be a trade-off, though!

Slicks are not very predictable.

[graider]

i'm loving it.

[GoingTooFast]

I've already posted the following vid somewhere else, however it's a very good example of how the setup of the car can influence its handling characteristics. The Evora despite of having more weight on the back (39% - 61%) doesn't understeer like the more naturally balanced Cayman.

You can see that the Cayman being tested has 19" wheels and mine are 18" having 235/35 - 235/40 front, 265/35 - 265/40 rear, respectively. Certainly it makes for a more appealing aesthetics BUT when you think that the stock wheels are 17" with 205/55 front and 235/50 rear tires you readly understand why that and also my Cayman understeers so much - too much rubber for such low power!

Also, neither have LSD an they have roughly the same curb weight (~1350kg) BUT the Evora despite of having only 15hp more does have a lot more torque, 350Nm @ 4600rpm vs 300Nm @ 4400-6000rpm, which is important in helping break loose the rear tires (255/35/19) traction.

Since the gear ratios are not that different,

Cayman..... Evora (close ratio)
3.66.......... 3.54
2.05.......... 1.91
1.40.......... 1.41
1.13.......... 1.09
0.97.......... 0.97
0.84.......... 0.86
3.87.......... 3.78 (final drive)

we can think of this torque difference as the difference between having the overboost function ON and OFF in the 1M. That's a big difference...

2.9L Cayman without LSD understeering badly


BTW, I really wish this Toyobaru could have a supercharger (instead of the more conventional turbo) just like the Toyota engine from the Evora S and dispite the fuel efficiency disadvantage:

If the supercharger wasn’t on show in the back window you might never guess that this Evora has forced induction. There’s none of the rasping whine that characterises the supercharged Exige, and the instantaneous throttle response and linearity of the power delivery give the impression that there is simply a bigger engine in the back. The ’charger is an Eaton TVS (twin vortex series), its installation engineered in conjunction with Australian firm Harrop, and as well as lifting power to 345bhp at 7000rpm it also bumps up torque by around 35lb ft right across the rev-range, peaking at 295lb ft at 4500rpm. It’s cooled by a pair of oil/water radiators mounted in the nose – along with the associated pipes and fittings, plus the mass of the ’charger itself, the installation adds a significant 50kg to the kerb weight.

Lotus Evora Supercharged review

[Red Bread]

With the heavy rear weight bias, it would take a lot of chassis tuning to get the Evora to understeer. Just switching an Elise to a more squared tire setup dials out nearly all of their understeer. Similar changes go for the 986/987, going to a square 235 or 245 setup certainly makes them more balanced than the factory fitments.

To your other point, is there any reason that Toyota/Scion can't run a supercharger while Subaru runs a turbo?