[M_Six]

Originally Posted by TurboFan

All very good questions and points. Of course it's impossible to set guidelines for all aspects, but I do believe people should be held accountable for their decisions.

One aspect that I find very interesting in proposed legislation, and has been supported by insurance companies, is if everyone is required to buy insurance, no one could be dropped, and pre-existing conditions become a thing of the past. I do wonder if rates would be raised a bit, like having traffic tickets when you have to get car insurance, but they say no.

As for hazardous occupations, employers should pay into a general fund to guarantee long term health care for exposed employees.
Details must be worked out, but I am on board 100% with full health coverage for kids under 18. I believe that if kids had access to care, we could stop lots of problems before they get out of hand as adults.

However, I will pose this back to you - why should I pay for someone that has made chronically poor decisions, when I have chosen to limit my risk with better decisions?

That last question is always at the heart of broad-based insurance. My car insurance rates in MA were ridiculous because they spread out the risk among everyone. So despite the fact that I had never had an accident, I was still paying high rates. Is that fair? Maybe not, but it was a fact of life. Health conscious people still can have very expensive medical issues. And those who are not health conscious sometimes live long lives with no health problems. But by and large, the vast majority of Americans are not health conscious. That's just a fact of life. It's easy to target those individuals who are shining examples of poor health choices, but they're the ones out on the fringe of the healthy living scale. The other end are those who eat only fresh vegetables, never touch a drink, never smoke, and don't take risks. The rest of us fall in between somewhere. So although your question is valid, it still begs the question of where you draw the line.

Tort reform needs to happen. If a doctor misses the one-in-a-million freak occurrence or even makes an honest mistake, he/she should not be held liable and face huge lawsuit damages. Doctors who act negligently should be barred from practicing medicine, but that negligence must be clearly proven. The current tort system in general is flawed because lawyers are able to hand pick juries which they feel will rule in their favor. Those juries often think lawsuits are nothing more than lotteries and they love awarding huge sums to the plaintiffs. Look at the huge settlements some life-long smokers have received. Now there's an example of rewarding bad behavior. In those cases, I hope the hospitals involved got their slice of the pie.

[TurboFan]

Originally Posted by M_Six

....The other end are those who eat only fresh vegetables, never touch a drink, never smoke, and don't take risks...

and die at 30. You are correct, its very difficult to draw the line. It's the same concept that pisses me off that I need to buy un/under- insured auto insurance riders.

Tort reform needs to happen. If a doctor misses the one-in-a-million freak occurrence or even makes an honest mistake, he/she should not be held liable and face huge lawsuit damages. Doctors who act negligently should be barred from practicing medicine, but that negligence must be clearly proven. The current tort system in general is flawed because lawyers are able to hand pick juries which they feel will rule in their favor. Those juries often think lawsuits are nothing more than lotteries and they love awarding huge sums to the plaintiffs. Look at the huge settlements some life-long smokers have received. Now there's an example of rewarding bad behavior. In those cases, I hope the hospitals involved got their slice of the pie.

You and I are on the same page here!

[shpirate87]

Is this what we can all look forward to?

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[sayemthree]

the Dr.s will get screwed - they are prohibited by law from Lobbying and forming a PAC. the drug companies and insurance compainies will steal all the tax money and we will get DMV level medical service. oh, unless you are rich enough to afford your own insurance, then you just subsidize the rest.

[lkw15]

Originally Posted by sayemthree

the Dr.s will get screwed - they are prohibited by law from Lobbying and forming a PAC. the drug companies and insurance compainies will steal all the tax money and we will get DMV level medical service. oh, unless you are rich enough to afford your own insurance, then you just subsidize the rest.

Doctors can and do have a PAC and lobby. In the last election cycle the American Medical Association contributed over $4 million dollars to federal candidates - which is quite a bit compared to many other industry PACs. And doctors can, and often do make trips to Washington to lobby members of Congress and their staffs (just like practically every other group in America does).

But you're right: not only will doctors be screwed, we all will. The costs will become astronomical, and the management of our health care system will be bogged down with more bureaucracy than you could ever imagine. Health care reform does need to be addressed, but its going to have to start with tort reform and incentivizing private industry to compete more.

[doubled24]

3 ways we can cut out alot of the BS in your argument:

1) Free college for anyone willing to work for it-- including post grad degrees
2) Haul in the drug, insurance and medical supply companies that make absolutely too much profit. I'll admit that drug companies put alot of $ into research, but this imho should all be nationalized and the R&D for new medications or surgical techniques belongs in our universities and their respective hospitals.
3) Implement guidelines and limits on fines so people can't continuously sue their doctors over and over. There's too many people filing nuissance lawsuits -> socialize health care, let them sue the government for non-cash benefits. In most all cases procedures are elective events and the patient should understand and agree to the risks before undergoing said treatment.

Sure, sounds alot like socialist Europe... i like it alot

[shpirate87]

Originally Posted by doubled24

3 ways we can cut out alot of the BS in your argument:

1) Free college for anyone willing to work for it-- including post grad degrees
2) Haul in the drug, insurance and medical supply companies that make absolutely too much profit. I'll admit that drug companies put alot of $ into research, but this imho should all be nationalized and the R&D for new medications or surgical techniques belongs in our universities and their respective hospitals.
3) Implement guidelines and limits on fines so people can't continuously sue their doctors over and over. There's too many people filing nuissance lawsuits -> socialize health care, let them sue the government for non-cash benefits. In most all cases procedures are elective events and the patient should understand and agree to the risks before undergoing said treatment.

Sure, sounds alot like socialist Europe... i like it alot

Who the hell are you to decide who makes "too much profit"?

[lkw15]

Originally Posted by doubled24

3 ways we can cut out alot of the BS in your argument:

1) Free college for anyone willing to work for it-- including post grad degrees
2) Haul in the drug, insurance and medical supply companies that make absolutely too much profit. I'll admit that drug companies put alot of $ into research, but this imho should all be nationalized and the R&D for new medications or surgical techniques belongs in our universities and their respective hospitals.
3) Implement guidelines and limits on fines so people can't continuously sue their doctors over and over. There's too many people filing nuissance lawsuits -> socialize health care, let them sue the government for non-cash benefits. In most all cases procedures are elective events and the patient should understand and agree to the risks before undergoing said treatment.

Sure, sounds alot like socialist Europe... i like it alot

I think you make too much profit. Maybe you should share?

[TurboFan]

Originally Posted by doubled24

3 ways we can cut out alot of the BS in your argument:

1) Free college for anyone willing to work for it-- including post grad degrees
2) Haul in the drug, insurance and medical supply companies that make absolutely too much profit. I'll admit that drug companies put alot of $ into research, but this imho should all be nationalized and the R&D for new medications or surgical techniques belongs in our universities and their respective hospitals.
3) Implement guidelines and limits on fines so people can't continuously sue their doctors over and over. There's too many people filing nuissance lawsuits -> socialize health care, let them sue the government for non-cash benefits. In most all cases procedures are elective events and the patient should understand and agree to the risks before undergoing said treatment.

Sure, sounds alot like socialist Europe... i like it alot

Hey look, the Obama administration is posting on our forum!

Let me ask you something - if there's no potential reward (the large profits), who in their right mind would put out the risk to develop the drugs we all so adore? The government can't afford the R&D, and shouldn't be meddling in private industry.

If you like Europe so much, move there.

[purespeed]

This lady is calling Obama out on his healthcare bill. Looks like she has Obama by his throat on this one.

She labels it as: TonySopranoCare.

Lie One: No one will be compelled to buy coverage.

Lie Two: No new taxes on employer benefits.

Lie Three: Government can control rising health care costs better than the private sector.

Lie Four: A public plan won't be a Trojan horse for a single-payer monopoly.

Lie Five: Patients don't have to fear rationing

http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/30/oba...-medicare.html

[Mighty M]

Originally Posted by TurboFan

Hey look, the Obama administration is posting on our forum!

Let me ask you something - if there's no potential reward (the large profits), who in their right mind would put out the risk to develop the drugs we all so adore? The government can't afford the R&D, and shouldn't be meddling in private industry.

If you like Europe so much, move there.

Its a more free society. The land of the free starts looking like the USSR in comparison. I can appreciate the suggestion.

[purespeed]

"The California morass has Democrats in Washington trembling. The reason is simple. If Obama’s health-care plan passes, then we may well end up paying for it with federal slips of paper worth less than California’s."

"The federal picture is so bleak because the Obama administration is the most fiscally irresponsible in the history of the U.S."

"The Obama administration has no shame, and is willing to abandon reason altogether to achieve its short-term political goals."

"With the price tag of Obama-care likely to exceed $1 trillion, moderate Democrats face a simple choice. They can jump off the cliff with the president, or they can stay true to the principles that they have espoused throughout their careers. "

"Either the Obama plan will come crashing down or Senate Democrats will concoct some bill that has health in the title but costs almost nothing and does even less. With Al Franken arriving in the Senate and providing Democrats with a crucial 60th vote, the latter seems most likely. "

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aTKrn1jUJwdE

[EDK99]

No shocker here. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=a3wUXb42NPX0

This whole thing is making me sick!

[TurboFan]

“The surtax is obviously more attractive to Democrats in the House because it’s more progressive, which they find attractive in and of itself,” said Paul Van de Water, a senior fellow at the Washington-based Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a research group focused on policies affecting low- and moderate-income families.

So the new definition of progressive is to shove it in the ass of Americans who have worked to make a good living? F**K YOU DEMOCRATS.

[doubled24]

Originally Posted by shpirate87

Who the hell are you to decide who makes "too much profit"?

Health care as I see it is an innate right as we move into the next century. I basically see it as profiting off the misfortune of others. I'm not sure if you are up to date with polling information, but almost 3/4 of Americans would tend to agree there needs to be an affordable public option. Watch what happens when the powerful 1/4 of this country continue to neglect and leave behind the rest of the citizens of our nation, the country as a whole will head towards the shitter.


I have a well paying job, good health insurance, etc. I Still managed to pay over $12000 out of pocket for medical expenses last year b/c my insurance would not step up to cover shit that was medically necessary, so this whole debate hits very close to home for me, even if I don't consider my socioeconomic status to be similar to the lower tiers of people which I stand up for.

I can see we have plenty of die hard republicans on this board, not really surprising since bmw owners are the king dicks of the world to those outside the circle and there is clearly a fundamental difference of opinion on this and many other matters. The fact of the matter is, if we didn't have an enormously retarded lower class of white americans for the well off republicans to scare into doing their bidding, we would be headed towards socialized medicine like every other 1st world country.

Originally Posted by TurboFan

If you like Europe so much, move there.

If I could find employment in UK or Germany I would leave this backward ass country in no time.


Alternatively, if health care reform can't be passed I'd like to see the DoJ utilizing anti trust and monopoly laws to take down these companies that continuuously screw over the average americans and pad their pockets. What is it something like 60% of those bankrupted are at least partially to blame on medical costs? Fucking absurd, like you said turbofan, you had to work your whole life to get the dems to tax you on your savings. I hope you contract a serious disease and a hospital takes you to court for everything you own.

[shpirate87]

Originally Posted by doubled24

Health care as I see it is an innate right as we move into the next century. I basically see it as profiting off the misfortune of others. I'm not sure if you are up to date with polling information, but almost 3/4 of Americans would tend to agree there needs to be an affordable public option. Watch what happens when the powerful 1/4 of this country continue to neglect and leave behind the rest of the citizens of our nation, the country as a whole will head towards the shitter.

How can you claim as a right the fruits of another person's labor? I thought that was called slavery. Tell me do you believe you have a right to force people into the medical profession if they believe they can do better elsewhere? Do you also believe that right to a free press entitles you to a free newspaper?

I do not know what polling you are looking at but Rasmussen shows the nation evenly split with 41% favoring a gov't option and 41% opposing it.

[TurboFan]

Originally Posted by doubled24

Health care as I see it is an innate right as we move into the next century. I basically see it as profiting off the misfortune of others. I'm not sure if you are up to date with polling information, but almost 3/4 of Americans would tend to agree there needs to be an affordable public option. Watch what happens when the powerful 1/4 of this country continue to neglect and leave behind the rest of the citizens of our nation, the country as a whole will head towards the shitter.


I have a well paying job, good health insurance, etc. I Still managed to pay over $12000 out of pocket for medical expenses last year b/c my insurance would not step up to cover shit that was medically necessary, so this whole debate hits very close to home for me, even if I don't consider my socioeconomic status to be similar to the lower tiers of people which I stand up for.

I can see we have plenty of die hard republicans on this board, not really surprising since bmw owners are the king dicks of the world to those outside the circle and there is clearly a fundamental difference of opinion on this and many other matters. The fact of the matter is, if we didn't have an enormously retarded lower class of white americans for the well off republicans to scare into doing their bidding, we would be headed towards socialized medicine like every other 1st world country.

Yeah? Fuck you and your innate rights. You want someone to work for you, pay up. Big deal, you paid $12,000 for something you needed. So what? You paid over $40k for a car you don't need. What's the problem? You should be kissing the feet of the doctors that gave you what you needed.

If I could find employment in UK or Germany I would leave this backward ass country in no time.

Don't let the door hit ya in the ass on the way out, and don't come back when you need real medical care. I've seen more than a few (hundred?) patients come from the UK, Germany, Canada, France, Spain, etc. to have access to our specialists when they can't get what they NEED from their wonderful country and their socialized healthcare.

You don't get rich being a doctor anymore, but you can make a nice living. Take that away, and the best and brightest that choose medicine now will make a different choice, which is bad for everyone. How the hell can you expect top flight healthcare, and yet expect that it doesn't cost money? You are simply stupid.

Originally Posted by doubled24

... like you said turbofan, you had to work your whole life to get the dems to tax you on your savings. I hope you contract a serious disease and a hospital takes you to court for everything you own.

Wow. Piss off. You're a real tough guy sitting behind your keyboard.

[doubled24]

Originally Posted by TurboFan

Yeah? Fuck you and your innate rights. You want someone to work for you, pay up. Big deal, you paid $12,000 for something you needed. So what? You paid over $40k for a car you don't need. What's the problem? You should be kissing the feet of the doctors that gave you what you needed.

A valid point, but had this been something more than outpatient procedure and I ended up laying out in a hospital for a couple weeks I'd be looking at being in debt over my head, possible bankruptcy, etc all because my insurance company decided they didn't have to "pay up". You guys sit around and bitch about a bureaucracy making a decision on whether or not you should be covered for a procedure and you think thats somehow a worse option than a private corporation which only cares about their bottom line making the decision for you.

Originally Posted by TurboFan

Don't let the door hit ya in the ass on the way out, and don't come back when you need real medical care. I've seen more than a few (hundred?) patients come from the UK, Germany, Canada, France, Spain, etc. to have access to our specialists when they can't get what they NEED from their wonderful country and their socialized healthcare.

I'm actually a canadian citizen, if it werent so fucking cold up there I'd still be living out in BC and I have never once had an issue or known anyone who could not get in to see a specialist when they had an urgent medical matter.... you don't even need an appointment for most things, just walk into a clinic and go. The three or four shitty stories a year that the republicans continue to pass around in their scare tactics are a poor representation of the quality of care received by ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of all canadians.

Originally Posted by TurboFan

You don't get rich being a doctor anymore, but you can make a nice living. Take that away, and the best and brightest that choose medicine now will make a different choice, which is bad for everyone. How the hell can you expect top flight healthcare, and yet expect that it doesn't cost money? You are simply stupid.

Doctors are very intelligent and hard working people-- I believe they should be well compensated for the educational hurdles they worked through as well as the procedures they must perform. It is entirely a fallacy that all the "best and the brightest" go into medicine anyway. Honestly, I think we could use alot of these creme de la creme scientific minds in fields like BME and primary education if we want to stay ahead of the curve. I've got several friends recently out of med school or nearly finished with it, and I've heard and considered the arguments from all sides. This is simply where I stand on the issue.

Originally Posted by TurboFan

Wow. Piss off. You're a real tough guy sitting behind your keyboard.

Seems like I touched a nerve there. I don't really wish misfortunes on anyone, but I think if somethng like this happened you'd be singing a different tune. There are a shit ton of issues with health care reform, but we have a responsibility to leave the personal attacks and fear mongering outside of the debate so we can create a better system for our children. All sides need to recognize the valid points raised by others and work towards a common goal instead of the thumbs in ears lalalalala I can't hear you attitudes that highly opinionated individuals on all sides display.

[Septro]

Originally Posted by shpirate87

How can you claim as a right the fruits of another person's labor? I thought that was called slavery. Tell me do you believe you have a right to force people into the medical profession if they believe they can do better elsewhere? Do you also believe that right to a free press entitles you to a free newspaper?

Great great points to hit home with but this is one tough cookie to crack. Healthcare is similar as a societal building blocks as Education. Education is the great equalizer and CAN break the historical walls on classes, races, gender, etc if all folks have fair access to it.

Healthcare, on the other hand, leads to the progression of a people to extend the quality and expectancy of life. In both respects I think the answer is to empower the individual over the beuracracy. Provide stipends, vouchers, tax-breaks, or any lever that empowers the purchasing/decisioning power of the 'customer' rather than the business/governmental entity .

What if the gov't granted you enough vouchers to purchase your own health insurance without the aid of an employer? Think about what you can do with that capability. Leave the government to focus on catastrophic-care (extreme elderly, impoverished, infants, life-threatening emergencies) and you ,the individual, focus on the rest; preventative care, routine care, therapeutic care, etc.. And for god's sake, make it portable! Allow healthcare insurance to be purchased across state lines.

Same concept/precept applies to Education. Take the teacher's union, local government out of the decisioning equation and put that power on parent's dollars to decide what is best for their child. If the school wants more dollars for something, let them work on putting out quality education that deserves such dollars. Parents talk with their wallets.

In both cases - that is 100% coverage (what the dems want), with individual choice (what the repubs want) with quality (what we all want)

[TurboFan]

Originally Posted by doubled24

A valid point, but had this been something more than outpatient procedure and I ended up laying out in a hospital for a couple weeks I'd be looking at being in debt over my head, possible bankruptcy, etc all because my insurance company decided they didn't have to "pay up". You guys sit around and bitch about a bureaucracy making a decision on whether or not you should be covered for a procedure and you think thats somehow a worse option than a private corporation which only cares about their bottom line making the decision for you.

Again, so what? You wanted medical care, you received medical care, you think you shouldn't have to pay for it? Why is it that people see spending money on their health is any different than spending money on anything else.

Originally Posted by doubled24

I'm actually a canadian citizen, if it werent so fucking cold up there I'd still be living out in BC and I have never once had an issue or known anyone who could not get in to see a specialist when they had an urgent medical matter.... you don't even need an appointment for most things, just walk into a clinic and go. The three or four shitty stories a year that the republicans continue to pass around in their scare tactics are a poor representation of the quality of care received by ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of all canadians.

I've seen Canadian, German, British and French patients coming to the US for specialty care first hand. Sorry, no news stories here.

Originally Posted by doubled24

Doctors are very intelligent and hard working people-- I believe they should be well compensated for the educational hurdles they worked through as well as the procedures they must perform. It is entirely a fallacy that all the "best and the brightest" go into medicine anyway. Honestly, I think we could use alot of these creme de la creme scientific minds in fields like BME and primary education if we want to stay ahead of the curve. I've got several friends recently out of med school or nearly finished with it, and I've heard and considered the arguments from all sides. This is simply where I stand on the issue.

Who said all the best and brightest? Shit, most of the best and brightest DON'T go into medicine because people like you have made it such a pain in the ass to be a doctor. They can all make far more money in private industry.

Wait 5-10 years when you have friends that are well out of residency and into an established practice. See how the tune changes and you will probably re-evaluate your stance.

Originally Posted by doubled24

Seems like I touched a nerve there. I don't really wish misfortunes on anyone, but I think if somethng like this happened you'd be singing a different tune. There are a shit ton of issues with health care reform, but we have a responsibility to leave the personal attacks and fear mongering outside of the debate so we can create a better system for our children. All sides need to recognize the valid points raised by others and work towards a common goal instead of the thumbs in ears lalalalala I can't hear you attitudes that highly opinionated individuals on all sides display.

You haven't raised a valid point yet. I am 100% for health care reform, but as I stated in my opening post, the current track of the administration is way off.

The first step to health care reform, as we all know, is to reduce cost. To reduce costs, as any business person knows, you have to look at where the costs are. I know, shockingly simple.

Allow me to let you in on a little secret - those best and brightest that DO go into medicine do it because they want to help people.
The vast majority of physicians I know, and I personally know dozens across the country in almost every specialty, want care to be affordable to everyone they see. But they aren't willing to sacrifice their own solvency for anyone, so they are forced to order BILLIONS of dollars in extra tests and procedures every year. The AMA is volunteering this information to Obama and Company, but they don't want to hear it. Anything that touches the beloved BAR lobby will never happen.

You fix that problem, and costs will drop, and drop fast. Then we can talk about some reform to the insurance industry that makes coverage available to all, similar to the auto insurance we are all required to carry.

[TurboFan]

Originally Posted by Septro

....What if the gov't granted you enough vouchers to purchase your own health insurance without the aid of an employer? Think about what you can do with that capability. Leave the government to focus on catastrophic-care (extreme elderly, impoverished, infants, life-threatening emergencies) and you ,the individual, focus on the rest; preventative care, routine care, therapeutic care, etc.. And for god's sake, make it portable! Allow healthcare insurance to be purchased across state lines....

Now that is something I can get behind. As an employer, it kills me that I can't offer my employees health insurance right now. It also hurts me competitvely, and I want to offer it soon.

However, if my employees could use tax credits to purchase health care, it would be amazing. It would also be truly extraordinary if people were forced to shop for their insurance the way they do auto insurance, and take a hard look at what it really costs.

Lastly, I'd like people to be able to see the true cost of health care, and shop around, the same way they all do when its time to take the car in for service.

[sayemthree]

hey once the Government bails out our healthcare, then they can tell us what to eat, what to drink or not.