[ganeil]

Originally Posted by MCS

Interesting party in your banner there.

IMO, McCain will come up with a better plan for foreign policy and try to come up with a timeframe to withdraw troops from Iraq. Being an ex-military guy, he knows the horrors of war firsthand.

2 elections ago, I thought that a McCain-Leiberman ticket may of worked...

Funny eh?

Keep the dialogue going, I joined in the discussion on the forum to gather ideas and share in opinion. Attacks on forum posters for their ideas are somewhat assinine and childish

I think McCain as a military guy realizes that the desired end state is not a withdrawal for withdrawal's sake. He understands that the troops are there for a reason and we should not withdraw them based on an artificial time table but on attaining our objectives.

[FirstClass]

Originally Posted by dr325i

Or you're just so empty headed to realize that only rich got richer in the last 8 years while middle class disappeared and country's down the drain...

Fail. Neither of these statements is true, but A+ for your continued effort.

[dr335is]

Originally Posted by FirstClass

Fail. Neither of these statements is true, but A+ for your continued effort.

Again...posting just to post...
You're too young for these kind of debates, didn't we already conclude that???

Show me opposite (prove it) and your statement is OK. Otherwise, go back to mommy, the dinner is almost ready...

[e90im]

He just doesn't understand who and where Al Qaeda is...

[FirstClass]

Originally Posted by dr325i

Again...posting just to post...
You're too young for these kind of debates, didn't we already conclude that???

Show me opposite (prove it) and your statement is OK. Otherwise, go back to mommy, the dinner is almost ready...

I have to prove it but you don't? Makes sense.

[ganeil]

Originally Posted by FirstClass

I have to prove it but you don't? Makes sense.

Haven't I warned you about trying to reason with him?

[FirstClass]

Originally Posted by ganeil

Haven't I warned you about trying to reason with him?

I know, I know. I stopped for a week but some of the BS was so egregious I had to start again. I think you know the feeling.

[dr335is]

Originally Posted by FirstClass

I have to prove it but you don't? Makes sense.

Actually, if I commented your statement -- it would make sense. But you commented on my statement, so elaborate on it.
If Ganeil wishes me to prove something for him, I'll gladly do it...instead like a little Georgia peach pussy answering through your comments...

[Couch]

Originally Posted by dr325i

So, it is just to collect the post points...

Or you're just so empty headed to realize that only rich got richer in the last 8 years while middle class disappeared and country's down the drain...

I never post in here, but do read on occasion. I typically disagree with everything you say, but you are partly correct.

The middle class hasn't completely disappeared, but it is on the decline. If anyone listens to Michael Savage, then you would know this because he harps on it almost everyday.

The rich will always get richer, period. It takes money to make money. They have money so they continue to do things to increase their own monetary value. The middle class is being divided in my opinion. The lucky ones are staying put, the majority are struggling.

Unfornately, I believe this has more to do with their own stupidity, as well as banks and credit companies stupidity. Far too many are approved for loans than should be. Loans both the banks and people applying for them know they cannot afford. They default 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, oh well Foreclosure time.

People are so blatantly stupid in this country. They don't think about what they can afford, they think about what everyone else will think about them with their new car, new home, new jewelry, etc. I work for a sub-prime mortgage company. I've viewed so many homes that have 5 cars in the driveway, in a shitty neighborhood, satellite on the roof, boats and waverunners. They're getting foreclosed, I wonder why?

Probably just went over board on typing, but oh well. Yes, the middle class is on the decline. For those that don't see that, look closer. And we are in a recession, despite what the bonehead says.

[MCS]

The country weathered the recessions of the early 90s and the dip after Sept 11 mostly by consumer spending.

Couch - I agree that much of the spending was wrought by over-leveraging easy loans and home equity that vaporized in the last 2 years.

Now that consumer spending is slowing down, how are we going to pull ourselves collectively out of this mess?

I don't think any politician can really answer this question and maybe they should not, esp in a "free market" economy?

The 600 rebate check as an election year ruse will fizzle out within 1-2 months.

Question for you since you're in the sub-prime/loan industry - Do you see recovery in the homebuilding and new commercial loans or are they as bad as ever? This ? is more for my own edification - may it be an indicator that construction has truly hit bottom?!?

[Couch]

Originally Posted by MCS

The country weathered the recessions of the early 90s and the dip after Sept 11 mostly by consumer spending.

Couch - I agree that much of the spending was wrought by over-leveraging easy loans and home equity that vaporized in the last 2 years.

Now that consumer spending is slowing down, how are we going to pull ourselves collectively out of this mess?

I don't think any politician can really answer this question and maybe they should not, esp in a "free market" economy?

The 600 rebate check as an election year ruse will fizzle out within 1-2 months.

Question for you since you're in the sub-prime/loan industry - Do you see recovery in the homebuilding and new commercial loans or are they as bad as ever? This ? is more for my own edification - may it be an indicator that construction has truly hit bottom?!?

It's not that the policians can't, they won't answer. They'll dance around the question(s) like they always do. Just like G-Dub is dancing away from saying Recession. It's sickening.

Since I don't work with the loans, it's bit more difficult for me to say. My co-workers who have been in the industry for a while have commented that next year will be a better time to buy a home. I don't think they see prices increasing necessarily, but things sort of leveling out so to speak.

A lot depends on the area of the country. Construction has slowed across the board (residential/commercial), but in varying ways throughout the country. Here in Texas, we're actually probably one of the more well off in this mess (out of the big states). That's not to say things aren't bad. I saw a stat on the news about 1.5 months ago saying that in Houston specifically home sales/builds for 900K-1 mil.+ were up 19%, while the mid-range/low were down from normal.

Cali has obviously taken a tremendous hit, as well as parts of Florida. There are a lot of high-rise condo's still under development in Miami that aren't going to be filled for sometime. I'm really not sure things have hit a bottom, but it seems they may have reached a "lull" at least.

I've heard predictions of a 2009 up-trend, as well as 2010 and 2011. I personally think it'll be late 2009 before we say any signs of an upward swing. But I also don't expect values to ever rise as continuously and rapidly as they did. But, I'm only a lowly research analyst, and do my best to eaves drop and discuss some of what's going on.

[UncleWede]

I lost $1/4 mil between two refinances of my home, one in sept. 2006 and one in Feb of this year. Of course I laughed for days when they told me my house was worth $3/4 mil in 2006!


Opps,

[scottwww]

Originally Posted by Couch

The middle class hasn't completely disappeared, but it is on the decline. If anyone listens to Michael Savage, then you would know this because he harps on it almost everyday.

I haven't heard Michael Savage for awhile. In my area, his show was moved to a rerun at a later hour. It seems to me that Savage is a bit of a nutcase, but entertaining. This forum would be a good place to discuss his show.

[ganeil]

Originally Posted by Couch

I never post in here, but do read on occasion. I typically disagree with everything you say, but you are partly correct.

The middle class hasn't completely disappeared, but it is on the decline. If anyone listens to Michael Savage, then you would know this because he harps on it almost everyday.

The rich will always get richer, period. It takes money to make money. They have money so they continue to do things to increase their own monetary value. The middle class is being divided in my opinion. The lucky ones are staying put, the majority are struggling.

....

Probably just went over board on typing, but oh well. Yes, the middle class is on the decline. For those that don't see that, look closer. And we are in a recession, despite what the bonehead says.

I have not listened to Savage since I left the Bay Area (and I do believe he is off his rocker) but I wonder what his basis for this is? Now I understand that the whole idea of defining who is middle class and who is rich and who is poor is difficult to come to grips with but at least at the bottom of the scale, people are not moving from the middle class into poverty. The level of poverty in the country is not increasing. In fact, the only demographic group for which it is is hispanics and that is likely the result of immigration into the country. See this article.

My last quibble is with your assertion that we are in a recession. In order to discuss anything intelligently we have to have common definitions. The common definition of a recession is 2 consecutive quarters of negative growth in GDP. It maybe that the quarter we are currently in will show a retraction but the last quarter did not.

[dr335is]

Originally Posted by ganeil

My last quibble is with your assertion that we are in a recession. In order to discuss anything intelligently we have to have common definitions. The common definition of a recession is 2 consecutive quarters of negative growth in GDP. It maybe that the quarter we are currently in will show a retraction but the last quarter did not.

And FINALLY -- I must agree with Neil!!! I don't think we hit it yet.
Oh, can you imagine how fu***d it'll be when we hit it if it is this way now before it even began...250k jobs lost in 4 months, foreclosures up 112% in the first few months of 2008, inflation (food + energy incl) through the roof, consumer confidence in a dump, deficit at the record numbers, interest rates cut every week or two...

[scottwww]

The economy of the '70s was much worse. Of course there are those who are struggling today. Everybody stuggles at something. But there is far less economic trouble than in, say, 1978, 79, 80... Jimmy Carter has a bad reputation for very good reason. Are there similarities with Barry Obama?

[flyinb501]

Originally Posted by dr325i

Again...posting just to post...
You're too young for these kind of debates, didn't we already conclude that???

Show me opposite (prove it) and your statement is OK. Otherwise, go back to mommy, the dinner is almost ready...

There it is, the very clever commie dr325i using his only defense mechanism of calling you a highschooler who lives with his parents. Haha he pulled this on me a couple times in the communism 101 thread.

[flyinb501]

Originally Posted by Couch

Unfornately, I believe this has more to do with their own stupidity, as well as banks and credit companies stupidity. Far too many are approved for loans than should be. Loans both the banks and people applying for them know they cannot afford. They default 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, oh well Foreclosure time.

People are so blatantly stupid in this country. They don't think about what they can afford, they think about what everyone else will think about them with their new car, new home, new jewelry, etc. I work for a sub-prime mortgage company. I've viewed so many homes that have 5 cars in the driveway, in a shitty neighborhood, satellite on the roof, boats and waverunners. They're getting foreclosed, I wonder why?

.

Exactly! So why should the responsible ones like myself have to pay for others stupidity? Ppl will never learn there lessons if you bail them out everytime. Without failure there can be no success.

[FirstClass]

Originally Posted by dr325i

Actually, if I commented your statement -- it would make sense. But you commented on my statement, so elaborate on it.

You made the statement that only the rich make any money and that the middle class is gone. I asked you to prove it and you used circular logic to claim I need to prove you wrong because you have no obligation to support what you say in the first place. I'm curious how old you are that you can't make a coherent, reasoned argument in any of your posts.

[dr335is]

Originally Posted by FirstClass

You made the statement that only the rich make any money and that the middle class is gone. I asked you to prove it and you used circular logic to claim I need to prove you wrong because you have no obligation to support what you say in the first place. I'm curious how old you are that you can't make a coherent, reasoned argument in any of your posts.

Again, and again -- you read only what you wish -- that has happened more than once. First, I asked YOU to prove what you claimed against my comment. Now you claim something different.
That Bushie attitude and approach does not work here as you can see the nymbers (<20% of you are here), so, talking about brilliance and voherence... Read the thread again, do I need to point that out again, and again....
You believe so much into your own logic and what you post makes sense that you don't even realize that 80+% of us here are laughing...
Go back, read post by post (in every other post) before rushing with your egoism...

As for the age, lets just say I moved to this country before you were born...and that was just after serving my military service somewhere else...

EDIT: Let me give you a hint since you will get confused otherwise: post #266 is your reply to my comment NOT requiring any proof, then, read my comment...
Ah,m so easy...

[FirstClass]

Originally Posted by dr325i

Again, and again -- you read only what you wish -- that has happened more than once. First, I asked YOU to prove what you claimed against my comment. Now you claim something different.
That Bushie attitude and approach does not work here as you can see the nymbers (<20% of you are here), so, talking about brilliance and voherence... Read the thread again, do I need to point that out again, and again....
You believe so much into your own logic and what you post makes sense that you don't even realize that 80+% of us here are laughing...
Go back, read post by post (in every other post) before rushing with your egoism...

As for the age, lets just say I moved to this country before you were born...and that was just after serving my military service somewhere else...

EDIT: Let me give you a hint since you will get confused otherwise: post #266 is your reply to my comment NOT requiring any proof, then, read my comment...
Ah,m so easy...

Post 266: I say your comment (which you provided no proof for) is false.
Post 267: You insult me, tell me to go away and claim I must prove that your statement is wrong (you don't need to prove it's validity)
Post 269: I call you on your double standards of proof. By your logic what you said was by default true requiring proof to be false and what I said was false by default requiring proof to be true.
Post 271: You make a weak attempt to justify your double standard, and toss n insult in for good measure.
Post 283: I try to explain to you that your argument holds no water and is a clear double standard.
Post 284: You (yet again) say I'm the one who is wrong and I have no idea what's going on.

I think I'm going to have to agree with the assessment made earlier in this thread and expand upon it a bit. Being raised in a communist country (as you mention as often as you get the chance) has inherently shaped your thought processes. You are so used to the form followed by propaganda and deceit that your arguments follow the same pattern. Double standards, lack of logic and attacks against persons of the opposite view in order to degrade and marginalize them because you cannot refute their arguments with logic and facts of your own. I don't mean this as an insult, it's not your fault, it's simply a function of the environment you were raised in.

[dr335is]

Originally Posted by FirstClass

Post 266: I say your comment (which you provided no proof for) is false.
Post 267: You insult me, tell me to go away and claim I must prove that your statement is wrong (you don't need to prove it's validity)
Post 269: I call you on your double standards of proof. By your logic what you said was by default true requiring proof to be false and what I said was false by default requiring proof to be true.
Post 271: You make a weak attempt to justify your double standard, and toss n insult in for good measure.
Post 283: I try to explain to you that your argument holds no water and is a clear double standard.
Post 284: You (yet again) say I'm the one who is wrong and I have no idea what's going on.

I think I'm going to have to agree with the assessment made earlier in this thread and expand upon it a bit. Being raised in a communist country (as you mention as often as you get the chance) has inherently shaped your thought processes. You are so used to the form followed by propaganda and deceit that your arguments follow the same pattern. Double standards, lack of logic and attacks against persons of the opposite view in order to degrade and marginalize them because you cannot refute their arguments with logic and facts of your own. I don't mean this as an insult, it's not your fault, it's simply a function of the environment you were raised in.

First of all -- your analogy is so false I cannot even describe it.
before post 266 -- I stated my opinion to someone else's statement
post 266 -- you said my opinion is FALSE
post 267 -- I asked you to prove why you stated that my post is false.

Note that the person I disagreed with above did not ask for any proofs, you jumped in telling my post is wrong and I asked to explain the reasons...simple as that.

And again and again -- you use fallacies to TRY to make a point -- because I was raised in a communist system (20 years ago), I mus still be under that propaganda... Are you out of your mind, or really that dumb to believe what you typed???
Moreover, I have seen the communism (not really lived there, some history on Yugoslavia which I also mentioned a few times can clarify that for you), I have lived in Socialism (Yugoslavia, but also lived in France, which you, Ganeil, O'Railey and other brainwashed call Socialism), I pretty much lived in China in 2005/2006 and I lived here for 20 years. We call it experience.

Now, tell us if you ever left your PA village, and watched/read any other media inputs but US "propaganda"?

Do you know what "double standards" mean??? If you do, show me where I used them. Do you know what circular logic is, or you just use the term to sound smart? Do you know what "ad hominem" means, thay you use it so much to point others fallacies? Obviously not since your whole post above is exactly that...

I think I am done with you till you grow up and start using your head and logical thinking instead of Bush propaganda that was obviously wrong from the very begining...