[KoenG]

Scott, thanks for let me having the award.

You continue to use sales volumes as being the purest KPI for building good drivers car. I don't see any correlation between both.

Indirect you prove the point that the debate is much less about the driving abilities, it's much more about pleasing the masses in the rising markets.

When this is what you state, I guess we say the same.... and I still feel bad about it.

[MaestroAl]

Are you saying that somehow BMW must become a niche manufacturer to satisfy your idea of what the brand represents? BMW is not Porsche. BMW is a mass market, premium car manufacturer with a tilt towards making their cars good to drive. They're not a sports car manufacturer. Hell, they're not even a driver's car manufacturer. That's just marketing shite and the fact that their cars drive really well. But go drive a Porsche Cayman then anything by BMW and tell me a BMW is a driver's car. Drive a cheap MX-5 or Miata or whatever you folks call them and tell me any BMW is a driver's car. Hell, a Honda S2000 is a better drivers car than anything BMW make. Then there's Lotus, Caterham .. the list is endless but BMW are not on it.

They make excellent cars, yes. But keep it in perspective

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by MaestroAl

Are you saying that somehow BMW must become a niche manufacturer to satisfy your idea of what the brand represents? BMW is not Porsche. BMW is a mass market, premium car manufacturer with a tilt towards making their cars good to drive. They're not a sports car manufacturer. Hell, they're not even a driver's car manufacturer. That's just marketing shite and the fact that their cars drive really well. But go drive a Porsche Cayman then anything by BMW and tell me a BMW is a driver's car. Drive a cheap MX-5 or Miata or whatever you folks call them and tell me any BMW is a driver's car. Hell, a Honda S2000 is a better drivers car than anything BMW make. Then there's Lotus, Caterham .. the list is endless but BMW are not on it.

They make excellent cars, yes. But keep it in perspective

Yeah and let's not forget Porsche is not independent- the brand trying to take over the world now controls them. Let's see how that works out, rather the, just partnering for parts supply discounts and engineering platforms. Did wonders for Lambos quality control (thanks Audi) but killed the rawness of the beasts.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

The X3 and X5, as well as the Z cars have brought in non-traditional customers by utilizing existing platforms in new shapes and configurations. The 3GT is a continuation of this, so perhaps my fears of it's existence are overstated. But reaching out into the fwd world, with a chassis that isn't shared with MINI just seems fruitless.

UKL will be shared with the next Mini, I'm sure that's what SCOTT said.

[MaestroAl]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

Did wonders for Lambos quality control (thanks Audi) but killed the rawness of the beasts.

But isn't that the same thing as people are saying about BMW in a way? I mean, how many people really want a truly terrifying Lambo? Not many people, I bet. And yet how many people now buy them when they're still awesomely quick, sound like hell on fire and yet are easy to drive from A to B? Lots. And yet if you want something truly terrifying then you can still buy a Noble, or a TVR or a Hennesey... you just won't want to drive them every day and they'll have to be a second car. Those cars still exist but the Lambo grew up and is a better car for it

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by MaestroAl

Are you saying that somehow BMW must become a niche manufacturer to satisfy your idea of what the brand represents? BMW is not Porsche. BMW is a mass market, premium car manufacturer with a tilt towards making their cars good to drive. They're not a sports car manufacturer. Hell, they're not even a driver's car manufacturer. That's just marketing shite and the fact that their cars drive really well. But go drive a Porsche Cayman then anything by BMW and tell me a BMW is a driver's car. Drive a cheap MX-5 or Miata or whatever you folks call them and tell me any BMW is a driver's car. Hell, a Honda S2000 is a better drivers car than anything BMW make. Then there's Lotus, Caterham .. the list is endless but BMW are not on it.

They make excellent cars, yes. But keep it in perspective

I don't think that I'am having a private and lonely fantasy when I state that the first differentiator in the BMW value proposition is the consequent vehicle architecture to deliver a drivers car. I know some do it better, but it always bears a price. Try to put your kids in a Cayman or S2000 for example.

There are only few sedans with the architecture of the BMW's. Also because it costs more to do it like this and practicality is down and behaviour is less idiot proof. The BMW is a bit more demanding, but also a bit more satisfying. This puts a random BMW always a bit closer to a sportscar than any random Audi I guess.

Indeed, this is in almost every brochure BMW has ever published. But I believe they are correct in making clear why they do the cars they do like this and not like all the rest.

[MaestroAl]

Exactly You finally hit the nail on the head. Try getting your kids in a Cayman. It's not a sports car, it's a compramise. And a very good one. But it's not a sports car. It's a family car with a sporting slant, nothing more, nothing less. As I said, BMW do an excellent job with their cars but they're not what some people on this forum seem to think they are. They're just another premium, mass produced family car ... that happens to be the best of its kind in a lot of cases

Every car in the BMW line-up conforms to that sporting slant. They don't have to be "purist", they don't have to have rock hard suspension, they don't have to be impractical and they don't have to guzzle gas like it's koolaid. A BMW can be comfortable, practical, spacious, frugal and yes, even green ... and still be a BMW.

My old man's been through his fair share of Bimmers and diverted along the way via Mercedes and Range Rovers and keeps coming back to BMW. They're always his favourites. He's 66 and his most recent car is a 5GT. Does anyone think he bought that car because he's gagging for a "drivers car" that's "sporty"? No, but he still bought it because it has that certain, special BMW quality about it and the point is; the crucial point is: that's not because it's a driver's car. It's simply because it's special in a way the competition isn't.

[KoenG]

Maestro, I try to digest what you're saying.

But for me it is probably the end of BMW since we throw all overboard what made it what it is now. We buy BMWs since they are just "good" some way or another and are better than the rest for some reason but it's no longer the fine 50/50 balance, low center of gravity or RWD. Take note that Toyota or Audi customers exactly buy their cars for the same reason then.

When this is true for even people on this enthousiast board, which typically adheres to the top 1 or 2% engaged customers, I'am starting to get really afraid for the future.

On the other hand, I still see a magnificent F10 and F30 (a bit less on the F20, the M135i seems to be collosal convincing though) that are still the best engaging cars of the picklist in most comparison tests. So I hope BMW remains still a bit loyal to their roots...I hope....!

[Terpinator]

Back to discussing the actual car.... some reports have said that the GT will be on a longer wheelbase then the sedan. If so, it looks as if it would be between the standard sedan and the Chinese market long wheelbase version. You can see in these pics that the GT is definitely on a shorter platform than the LWB version. (compare the length of the bottom of the front door to the bottom of the rear door in each photo and the LWB rear door is definitely longer). I'm hoping that they stretch the GT by a few inches, as I'm hoping for a bit more rear leg room for the kids...

GT


LWB


Maybe I'm the only one, but I'm very much looking forward to the full reveal of the GT and to find out if it will be brought to the USA. I also have owned two Saab 900's in the past, so that could explain why I'm in the minority!

[Terpinator]

not sure why the photos didn't show up. I'll try again:
gt


lwb

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by MaestroAl

Exactly You finally hit the nail on the head. Try getting your kids in a Cayman. It's not a sports car, it's a compramise. And a very good one. But it's not a sports car. It's a family car with a sporting slant, nothing more, nothing less. As I said, BMW do an excellent job with their cars but they're not what some people on this forum seem to think they are. They're just another premium, mass produced family car ... that happens to be the best of its kind in a lot of cases

Every car in the BMW line-up conforms to that sporting slant. They don't have to be "purist", they don't have to have rock hard suspension, they don't have to be impractical and they don't have to guzzle gas like it's koolaid. A BMW can be comfortable, practical, spacious, frugal and yes, even green ... and still be a BMW.

My old man's been through his fair share of Bimmers and diverted along the way via Mercedes and Range Rovers and keeps coming back to BMW. They're always his favourites. He's 66 and his most recent car is a 5GT. Does anyone think he bought that car because he's gagging for a "drivers car" that's "sporty"? No, but he still bought it because it has that certain, special BMW quality about it and the point is; the crucial point is: that's not because it's a driver's car. It's simply because it's special in a way the competition isn't.

Well said, very much my views and I've been with BMW since the 1970's.

I sense a very narrow and fantasy view of what BMW were and are today. They have core values, but a BMW isn't primarily a sports car, that is not what BMW were about and 'sporty sedan' is as close as you get today. The M-cars are there for the real driving enthusiast.

BMW always produced a car that had the 'edge' for the driver, compared to the family cars from the competition, but comfort in a solid build, well engineered, were always high priorities. But a BMW was "a BMW", even before we were getting options of sport seats, alloy wheels and sport suspensions.

As to BMW selling out and going for niche models outside their comfort zone, even core markets, this is not new.

Come on guys look at the history of BMW, 2002 touring, the 3GT is just a continuation of that concept. E36/46 compact, what was that if not a departure into what appears to be niche marketing. E30 touring and even E34 5-series touring, "outrage" that BMW would go touring/wagon in a 5-series.

Now you lament the fact BMW won't sell 5-series wagons in some markets.

I sense a lack of knowledge of the BMW brand, and/or just moan for the sake of it.

I'm a typical customer for the 3GT, a sedan is not useful enough, need the open space with seats down, so have to go touring/wagon to do so, if I stay with BMW. The hatch concept is bang on the money. The 5GT was too big for me, or I'd be in one. I'm seriously thinking of waiting for the 3GT, rather than the F31 wagon.

Great move BMW, when you introduced the 2002 touring, was a brave move and it worked, roll on the 3GT. A modern 2002 touring/hatchback.

HighlandPete

[MaestroAl]

Yeah me too - I think if the 3GT were available now and was as nice as the saloon, I'd get one Hatches are just way more practical for a family man. My current car (the MPS) was my first ever saloon car because I've always been forced down the route of something more practical. Then we got the wife an S-Max and it freed me up to get a saloon. Otherwise it wouldn't have been possible It's just a shame that BMW don't make an MPV

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by Terpinator

some reports have said that the GT will be on a longer wheelbase then the sedan.

Frankly, It would surprise me when they would up the wheelbase with a few inches. I assume that doing such a thing also ups the production costs substantially. When it is for bringing more leg room in the back, why didn't they on the sedan and touring then? People grew the last 6 months?

The F30/31 are brand new, it's not that they pre-introduce a variant on the next platform or anything. I reckon that it is typically then that you would see differences in wheel base within a model range (since two generations of chassis).

We'll know more very soon I guess, seen the fundamental debates here, I hope at least the style will be ok. The vehicle composure and dynamics will most probably be ok (seen F30 based), and that is more important.

[Pavit]

The way the front looks in the camo and especially the grills, I'd say it'll look like a bigger Z4 (front wise)!

I kind of like the 3GT is going, good candiate for my next car next year :-)

[Frosty]

[jwickers]

Originally Posted by KoenG

Frankly, It would surprise me when they would up the wheelbase with a few inches. I assume that doing such a thing also ups the production costs substantially. When it is for bringing more leg room in the back, why didn't they on the sedan and touring then? People grew the last 6 months?

The F30/31 are brand new, it's not that they pre-introduce a variant on the next platform or anything. I reckon that it is typically then that you would see differences in wheel base within a model range (since two generations of chassis).

We'll know more very soon I guess, seen the fundamental debates here, I hope at least the style will be ok. The vehicle composure and dynamics will most probably be ok (seen F30 based), and that is more important.

They will probably reuse the 3Li from China. This would also make sense if they wanted to differentiate the car and charge a premium over of the sedan.

[Terpinator]

Regarding trim levels, do you think that the GT will be available from launch with the M-Sport Package, or will we have to wait for it?

[SCOTT26]

Because the new F30 sits on a modular platform in which the wheelbase can be extended by additional modular pieces for cars like the 3er Li and then can be subtracted for the 3er GT an inch or two or entirely shortened for the BMW 4er Coupe models.
Think of the modular architecture as meccano or even lego you can add and subtract allowing a cost effective method of additional models hence the addition of the 3er Li , 3er GT and the 4er Coupe.
Models that will make considerable return.

Although that balance brings the cars to an equal footing or if you include the 3er Li it stands as 4 3er models against 3 4er models.
But BMW being BMW have ideas that can progress both of the lines which they will have to perform market feasibility programmes to make the cars respond to the markets.

If you take the 2er for example a feasibility programme is ongoing for a new type of urban sports car A Coupe-come-fastback Tourer which is entirely BMW as the car evolves that classic 2002 Touring look with modern ideas but utilising the RWD/AWD architecture of the 2er which would share the same modular architecture as an (under evaluation) 2er Gran coupe.

[Pavit]

Bump... UUmm isn't the F34 3 GT supossed to be unveiled at the Paris Motor show ? :-(

[kevlartoronto]

It's odd they didn't announce it at the Paris show. I guess they wanted to focus on the fwd 1 series first. The question is when is their next opportunity to introduce it ?

[pmc123]

wonder if the massive back hatch will be as creaky as my old Saab 900 was

[noro]

This officially marks the end of 3-series as an icon.