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      03-21-2011, 11:58 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Acepilot01 View Post
Hyundai is biting off way more than it can chew. For them to say that the genesis coupe is on the same level as the 3 series coupe is blasphemy.
+1
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      03-21-2011, 04:30 PM   #134
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As I stated in an earlier post Hyundai is targeting a younger buyer who is looking to spend less than a BMW costs just as Toyota did in the 70s. When that buyer gets older and more affluent Hyundai will be ready with a car for him to move up to and there is a good chance that he will remain loyal to the brand.

As for heritage, there is a point in time at which that does not really matter. Does anyone buying a BMW feel that it has less heritage than a Mercedes because Mercedes is an older company? Are Lamborghini buyers concerned that the brand is younger than Ferrari? A 25 year old car buyer will not view a brand that has been around all of his life as the new kid on the block or as an upstart. We are at the point now where it is possible that there are Lexus buyers who rode home from the hospital they were born in in a Lexus. The reality is that Lexus, BMW and Mercedes are running about neck to neck in terms of sales in the Luxury and Near Luxury segments.

If there is anyone here who won't buy a Hyundai because they don't think it has a status image or because the brand lacks "herigage", Hyundai is not trying to convince you otherwise. They are looking to the future and are planning to be there waiting in 10 to 20 years when the people who are driving Sonatas today are ready to move up the ladder.

So you can post on a BMW forum all day stating "LMAO", "BMW FTW", "BMW>Hyundai" ,"Hyundai will never compete with BMW" or "I would never buy a Hyundai". Hyundai is not trying to sell to you. They know where their market is now and they know where they want it to be in 15 years. If they have a sales motto it is probably "Today Honda and Toyota, Tomorrow BMW and Mercedes"

What some of the people here don't seem to realize is that in 1968 BMW was the upstart and General Motors had 50% of the domestic market. The BMW 1600 appealed mainly to younger people who were looking for a good performing affordable car. To the mass market the 1600 did not have the prestige of a Camaro Z28, Pontiac GTO, or Boss 302 Mustang let alone a Cadillac or a Buick.

And perhaps Hyundai does have "a long way to go" and perhaps it it will "take a long time". It took BMW a long time and it took Toyota (Lexus) a long time. Hyundai knows that and they are prepared to wait. You can counter with all the "A Lexus is a rebadged Toyota with no soul" posts you like. The bottom line is that those who are voting with their wallets are voting for BMW and Lexus in about equal numbers and I have no reason to doubt that in 10 to 15 years Hyundai will be a prominent player in that space as well. Whether you happen to agree with the reasoning behind the choice of the buyers of BMWs competitors or not is irrelvant. A lost sale is a lost sale and lost market share is lost market share. Telling the stockholders that it doesn't count because the sales were lost to "inferior brands", "cars with no soul or heritage" or "Korean junk" is simply not going to fly.


CA
^^ This.

Product and brand management are part of long term, strategic programs. And Hyundai is no joke. Look at where that brand's come in the last 10 or 15 years. Yeah, it WAS a joke -- up until about the mid/late 90s. Then they started offering REALLY long warranties. Why was this? To get people to buy? Maybe. Or maybe to really learn (LEARN) how to make cars that DON'T break. To get their hooks into a certain market segment (less affluent) and "be there" for them as they mature / increase buying power.

GE used to make microwave ovens. Then the Koreans learned how to. Now, GE jokes about making microwave ovens on 30 Rock (wait, Comcast owns NBC now, but that's beside the point).

To all the fanboyz who are lolling and lmaoing to death, think about this. Would you rather have peak HP or more area under the curve? Take a look at the *rate of change* in Hyundai's cars vs, say BMW / Merc / Jag / etc and it's pretty astonishing. Yeah, they had a long way to go and you can argue that the easy part (climbing the steep, shorter part of the learning curve) is done. But you have to give respect.

And just like Lexus gets respect on Top Gear, don't be surprised when it's Hyundai's turn. Remember, the Japanese made sh*tboxes a long time ago. It's about LEARNING. And yeah, you probably aren't the target market - and that's okay for Hyundai.

I, for one, will carefully consider relevant competitors when it comes to features, performance and styling for the price. "Heritage" doesn't repay me for lost 12V power jacks, map pockets or lack of standard features found in cars down-segment. Let's see how things unfold - and remember that competition all around benefits the consumer.
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      03-24-2011, 08:26 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by krnboy817 View Post
and founded by a korean war survivor who sold rice and bicycles in the early 50's.
Actually Hyundai was founded in 1947 as Hyundai Engineering and Construction Company by Chung Ju-Yung. Then in 1967 he founded Hyundai Motor Company.
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      03-24-2011, 09:37 PM   #136
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Nobody is going to buy a Toyota luxury car instead of a Cadillac"
General Motors 1992


Hyundai learned from Lexus and Toyota. Lexus did not attempt to take customers from Cadillac. They saw that every year the average age of a Cadillac buyer increased by one year and that if that trend continued in 25 years the average age of a Cadillac buyer would be dead. Lexus also saw that the hard core Cadillac fans could not accept that the brand had gone seriously downhill and was building some very medioce (at best) products. Lexus was primarily marketing to younger buyers who were just entering the luxury car market. Lexus' core market was 40 to 50 year olds who bought a Corolla when they were 20, a Celica when they were 25 and a Camry when they were 35. They grew up with the brand and were loyal to it.

Hyundai is not attemting to convert any BMW or Mercedes owners. Hyundai is not marketing to the hard core BMW fans. They are looking to the future the same way Lexus did in 1992. If Hyundai continues in the direction that they are going in today, in a few years when young buyers who today are just entering the new car market are ready to move up market they will be seriously considering Hyundai products and will see no stigma attached to the brand. These future buyers may be saying "My Father used to think BMWs were great. He had a 2008 335i and the thing was in the shop all the time. He had to have 13 high pressure fuel pumps replaced and it had these horrible run flat tires that used to get destroyed every time he hit a pothole"

Lexus blindsided BMW and Mercedes in 1992 when they released the LS400 with impeccable build quality and a V8 engine for less than the Germans were selling their 6 cylinder sedans for. Both BMW and Mercedes scambled to get competitive V8 models out to compete.

There may be some people here are will dismiss Hyundais as "Cheap Korean Junk" but anyone who does not think that BMW will be buying Hyundai products taking them apart and going through them with a fine tooth comb is very naive.


"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
CA


Very well put.


I'd like to add for as much as people are hyping the BMW Driving Experience, check out the F10. I've driven both the F10 and the Genesis, and yes advantage BMW but it's not a 20K lead, which in reality is the difference between the two.

I wish Mr. Van Hooydonk would've wrapped the F10's body around the E60's dynamics, not that would've been a perfect vehicle, but BMW is definitely leaning towards the softer side of life. For us enthusiasts let's hope they don't pull the same crap with the E30.

I will still likely end up with an F10, so I'm an AHOLE but decision has been tougher than I expected or wanted. The drive was so underwhelming but I love the looks.
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      03-27-2011, 06:50 AM   #137
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I can't believe some of you guys are comparing Hyundais to BMW. Hyundai is not a luxury car automaker. They can put leather in their cars but that does not make them a luxury car maker. I don't think Hyundai should be thinking about trying to compete with BMW, they need to be worrying more about overtaking Honda and Toyota. If you think Hyundais are so great then sell your bimmer and go buy a Hyundai. Go ahead. I dare you. And if you're happy with it then good for you. If you think you have more fun driving a Hyundai than a BMW then that's your choice.

Hyundais have years to go to build up their reputation to even be on the level as Honda Toyota. It's taken decades for Honda and Toyota to build their image, and once they succeeded then they were able to churn out reliable luxury cars, Acura and Lexus. If Hyundai wants to compete, they'll have to get in the same sentence as H and T, then when they're no longer a laughingstock, yes that's right they are a laughingstock, then they can think about competing with luxury cars. But they'll have to start a new brand.
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      03-27-2011, 06:53 AM   #138
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What some of you need to realize is that some people have their heart deadset on 1 car and 1 car only. When I ordered my E92 it was the only car I was considering. I did not even go test drive a G37, C class, IS350, nothing. It was straight to the BMW dealership and end of story.This is my realistic dream car and nothing could change my mind. Someone who feels that same way about Hyundai, good for them. Different strokes for different folks.

However, when I bought my 4runner, I test drove other SUV's in similar class and the 4Runner drove the best, felt the best, and had the best reputation. My dad tried to pursuade me to buy a Suzuki XL7, but I don't see any other XL7's on the road still after 7 years and almost 150k miles. I know some BMW's may have some annoying issues, but you can bet I'll have a smile every time I get behind the wheel of the 335i coupe and shift that buttery smooth manual.
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      04-03-2011, 03:05 AM   #139
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The Toyota/Lexus comparisons that some of you bring up are inapplicable to Hyundai because Toyota has a long history of competitive racing and development and did so before Lexus was formed. What has Hyundai done in motorsport? Sure, they can copy all of the electronics and the general layout of a BMW or a Lexus, but at the end of the day, when it's time to turn and drive that Genesis,

The Samsung/LG comparison is also invalid because for many years, Japanese electronics brands have relied on Taiwanese, Korean, and other Asian nations for manufacturing. This is why Samsung owns almost every single part of an iPhone. Since when has German carmakers depended on Korean plants? In any event, Samsung phones and other electronics are still poorly built and engineered compared to better Sony, Apple, etc. products. Samsung has been outstanding for specs, but when it comes to quality and usability, I'd say that overall, there is much to be desired.

That being said, many Hyundais are very decent cars for what they do, but just like Lexus - yes, even Lexus - the onus is on them to prove that they can touch the BMW 3-series for handling/feel. Only Infiniti has truly managed to change the game for BMW, and this is in large part thanks to Nissan R&D over the 90s. It's too bad for Nissan/Infiniti that their marketing is crap because the G35 should have sold far, far, far better than it did.
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      04-04-2011, 02:50 AM   #140
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The Toyota/Lexus comparisons that some of you bring up are inapplicable to Hyundai because Toyota has a long history of competitive racing and development and did so before Lexus was formed. What has Hyundai done in motorsport? Sure, they can copy all of the electronics and the general layout of a BMW or a Lexus, but at the end of the day, when it's time to turn and drive that Genesis,

The Samsung/LG comparison is also invalid because for many years, Japanese electronics brands have relied on Taiwanese, Korean, and other Asian nations for manufacturing. This is why Samsung owns almost every single part of an iPhone. Since when has German carmakers depended on Korean plants? In any event, Samsung phones and other electronics are still poorly built and engineered compared to better Sony, Apple, etc. products. Samsung has been outstanding for specs, but when it comes to quality and usability, I'd say that overall, there is much to be desired.

That being said, many Hyundais are very decent cars for what they do, but just like Lexus - yes, even Lexus - the onus is on them to prove that they can touch the BMW 3-series for handling/feel. Only Infiniti has truly managed to change the game for BMW, and this is in large part thanks to Nissan R&D over the 90s. It's too bad for Nissan/Infiniti that their marketing is crap because the G35 should have sold far, far, far better than it did.
I agree with most of what u said.
But infiniti? seriously?
I have owned G35 and it was really crap.
I loved it for first 2 years but it really isn't that good after the third year and so on. It began to have lots of mechanical problem.
Just look at GTR. It has lots of mechanical issues rite now, and it costs ur hands and legs.
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      04-05-2011, 03:12 AM   #141
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I agree with most of what u said.
But infiniti? seriously?
I have owned G35 and it was really crap.
I loved it for first 2 years but it really isn't that good after the third year and so on. It began to have lots of mechanical problem.
Just look at GTR. It has lots of mechanical issues rite now, and it costs ur hands and legs.
I never said that the G is on the same level of reliability as Lexus, or that it is overall as good as the 3-series --only that for the first time, BMW had to take notice that another manufacturer has produced an exceptionally well equipped challenger to the 3 that is both powerful and handles really well.

BTW, my mechanic persuaded me not to get a used G35 due to reliability and cost of maintenance. Before settling on my 328, I was dead set on 300 Infiniti horses.
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      04-05-2011, 11:40 PM   #142
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I have to agree that Hyundai is being ridiculous with their aspirations here. From everything I've read about Korean buying trends, BMW and Mercedes are very well regarded there, so it's not suprising their aspirations lie there, but there is no chance Hyundai will be a serious competitor here.


It's great the Hyundai and Kia have moved up from being D list manufacturers to making cars that can decently compete against mid level manufacutrers like Ford and Chevorlet, Mazda, Honda and Toyota. I drove some of their products recently and they were up to the task but when they say 3 series competitor, it's just outragous.

You can't really build something with Genesis technology that will compete with the 3 series, it just won't work. Hyndai doesn't have the ecnomies of scale in ultra premium manufacturing yet to make a 3 series fighter, if they did try to make it, it would cost them 70k per car to build. They simply can't make a 50k car, they can try to shoot for a 35k car that's almost as good and hopefully that's what they do and it works out well, a 35k knock off of a 50k car with none of the ultra high end refinement is going to be terrible. Even if they could make the individual parts as cheaply, the initial research would still make their 50k car a 70k car. BMW's staff already has the experience of making decades of ultra luxury cars so they can very easily slap together a new 3 series and make it all work well. For Hyundai to slap a new 3 series together would be a monumental task because they're starting at square 1, and I can tell you as an absolute fact that they aren't willing to spend the nesseary money to get up to speed with BMW, they simply can't and still make profit.

Take the Equus as an example of what will happen if they shoot for the 3 series, it sold 2,000 units the year it was introduced to put that into perspective the S-Class which it was trying to compete against sold 85,000 units and cost 50% more and had fewer features!



Watered down luxury is grotesque and comsumers agree, no matter how much the wet dreams of Hyundai execs would like to disagree and think they can compete without putting the effort there to get up to speed.





What the result of trying to compete will be AT BEST is that they will become a competent cheap alternative not to the 3 series itself, but to it's own cheap alternatives, ie the G35. The Genesis RK will be to the G35 what the G35 is to the 3er in other words. I say this is the best solution because if they try to shoot any higher they will fall flat on their faces (see the Equus example).

So hopefully they don't shoot as high as they are claiming and create a horrific monstrosity that will never sell. What you can do as a cut rate company like Hyundai is make watered down ultra luxury cars that consumers have spoken and said they feel are grotesque or you can make upper mid level cars which are fully featured. When they develop the economies of scale to make ultra premium cars very efficiently then they will be able to compete.
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      04-09-2011, 06:52 PM   #143
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I think Hyundai should focus on beating Infiniti and other japanese upper scale manufacturers before thinking of competing with top german manufacturers. Japanese manufacturers still can't fully beat german autos in terms of overall package. Not just yet. Overall refinement of a vehicle is something that only comes from know-how and the brand entity, not the technology alone. I'm sure japanese are up-to-date with most vehicle related technologies, only thing they really lack these days is "feel". Something embedded into BMW when you grab the steering wheel.

Hyundai could say its a bmw competitor, but honestly, I will laugh. They make great cars, great warranty(proven durability), and nowadays, great design and their own technology to make parts on their own. What they lack is what most other manufacturers lack from Germans, the feel of the vehicle. I drive a BMW, I would know it is a bmw with my eyes closed. I drive a lexus, I wouldn't know whether I'm in an acura or some other car.

Hyundai, pursuing for similar numbers and positive design review is good, but thats a long step behind cars like BMW already.
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      04-10-2011, 09:13 AM   #144
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Some excellent points about Hyundai's long-term vision.

People will buy nice looking cars with power, and the genesis line fits the bill. They are not targeting current luxury drivers, but new entrants. Infiniti grabbed me in 02 right out of college when the G35 beat the 3 in car and driver's (or road and track, i cant remember) comparison. I didn't care that the G line before it was crap, or that Infinitis until that point were thinly disguised nissans. I saw a car for 30k that was faster than anything in the segment and looked sharp.

Only thing that surprised me is that they did not make the shift to luxury with an upscale brand, a la Toyota, Nissan, Honda. They must have calculated the cost of rebranding was less than introducing a new brand?
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      04-11-2011, 06:34 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Wild Squid View Post
I can't believe some of you guys are comparing Hyundais to BMW. Hyundai is not a luxury car automaker. .
actually they are... EQUUS


7 series killer... when all things are considered... price, performance, features, reliablilty, mpg.

The only thing Hyundai does do is custom work.

now hundai is new to the luxury market and this is the only thing they can be hit on... but they DO make a luxury car.

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      04-13-2011, 03:31 PM   #146
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I have to agree that Hyundai is being ridiculous with their aspirations here. From everything I've read about Korean buying trends, BMW and Mercedes are very well regarded there, so it's not suprising their aspirations lie there, but there is no chance Hyundai will be a serious competitor here.
And Buick has renown and market cachet in China while many American shun GM/Ford and Europeans enjoy Ford/Opel. What's the point? That imported autos have a place in almost any regional market, including Korea?

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You can't really build something with Genesis technology that will compete with the 3 series, it just won't work. Hyndai doesn't have the ecnomies of scale in ultra premium manufacturing yet to make a 3 series fighter, if they did try to make it, it would cost them 70k per car to build.
Uh, not sure what you're talking about. "Premium" doesn't usually equate to economies of scale (EOS).


"Premium" operations typically (typically) have a higher cost per unit (CPU) to manufacture, but sell for a greater, well, "premium" or average revenue per unit (ARPU).

EOS are usually (usually) found in low-cost operations. Ie, Hyundai's. Or any auto manufacturer. Is it hard to build a robot-driven, flexible assembly line with lean processes and JIT inventory system and non-union workers? Nope. The BMW plant in Spartanburg looks and behaves a lot like the Toyota plants in KY I've seen footage of. No secrets there....

Generally, a "Premium" strategy is more expensive to operate, yet yields far greater profit margins. I believe Hyundai's building the "fighter" for substantially less cost. Ie, taking yesterday's "Premium" offering and meeting 90% to 95% of the functionality at 70% or less of the price. Imagine 95% functionality/features at a savings of 30%. Unless you have roundels in your eyes, you'll consider it. Which is to the point of Hyundai's strategy.

Or perhaps you're referring to entry barriers blocking Hyundai's way? Ie, brand reputation? Brands take a long time to build -- that's what they're doing. Hyundai can't knock down BMW's door now, but they are doing a good job of being in a conversation with them. Check this thread, e.g.



Quote:
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What you can do as a cut rate company like Hyundai is make watered down ultra luxury cars that consumers have spoken and said they feel are grotesque or you can make upper mid level cars which are fully featured.
And BMW can make strong-performing luxury cars that are under-featured. Again, not seeing the point.

It will be interesting to see the actual car, instead of bench-bitching about Hyundai.

Here's to competition making things better for us all. :beer:
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