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BMW 3-Series and 4-Series Forum (F30 / F32) | F30POST > 2012-2019 BMW 3 and 4-Series Forums > General F30 3-Series Sedan / F32 4-Series Coupe Forum > Alpina F30 B3 Bi-Turbo Revealed with 410 HP. Debuts at Geneva Motor Show
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      02-16-2013, 10:15 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zebra99 View Post
This car will cost an arm and leg more than a stock 335i so who cares if it has 410hp?

Most of us know that with $3k you can get a FBO kit and achieve similar numbers. And then you have all this money left over for other mods that "you" feel are important.

Here's a good example:
Stock 335i = $50,000
Alpine B3 = $62,500 (25% more)

$12,500 is a lot of money!!!

Hell, go buy a stock M4 and you're done.

From a price/performance point of view, B3 is the best choice among 335i and M3.
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      02-16-2013, 10:35 AM   #68
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Alpina and BMW have an agreement that prevents additional Alpina models being sold in the US. An M3 and B3 would be too close for comfort especially in price comparison.

Alpinas success is down to its exclusivity.
Performance In a tailor made suit.
Whereas the equivalent M is the mass produced designer suit. An Alpina customer knows that he won't see the same car on the next street.
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      02-16-2013, 11:06 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
I am not talking about guessing. This is a known fact. Alpina builds their own product.


Alpina is their OWN manufacture, recognized by the German goverment. Every car that they build has an ALPINA vin and is not a BMW. That is why their cars do not carry the BMW roundel(s). I have been to three BMW factories over here: Munich, Regensburg and Leipzig. BMW only builds BMW's. Alpina builds their own cars. Just like MB and AMG's relationship. Every AMG car gets built by AMG, not MB. AMG is far larger factory than Alpina.
Alpina does not build their own cars they are built in BMW plants with components supplied by Alpina- BMW M actually puts in the build order for Alpinas. The areo mods, wheels and trim (on certain models) are fitted in Buchloe.

They assembly parts like the cooling package into kits and truck it to where it is being built (Dingolfing for example) where the Alpina is assembled and painted on the regular line- the rest as I noted above is completed at Alpina.

Alpina is considered a manufacturer in Germany because they create their own engines and they have a Tüv approved emissions lab (where they certify cars like Weissman). They also ALWAYS use the BMW Roundel on the hood and trunk.

The ZF transmission they currently use (8HP) has patented components and methods that are Alpina exclusive so they are not used elsewhere.

This engine is based on the N55 and is based on advances M had made with the S55...


(Below is bench testing the 8HP, the cooling packs being crated for shipment and a B6 that returned from BMW to have the aero/exhaust and wheels swapped out). and yes they reuse the base components that get swapped out over and over again!!!)
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      02-16-2013, 11:25 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Alpina invests a great deal of money into their products. In the past they have developed their own forced induction solutions from scratch.

Your theory is plausible, but I find it unlikely. Just my opinion.
They get the "code" from BMW and work their own as well as developing their own solutions for the power and how they obtain it. They have a state of the art engine development center and test the snot out of these things all over the place/ BMW facilities and leased rights elsewhere. They truly build these things rock solid.
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      02-16-2013, 12:37 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
From a price/performance point of view, B3 is the best choice among 335i and M3.
How do you figure? Are we only talking in a straight line? To some, performance is the whole ball of wax (handling, braking, etc)


We talking current M3? Next gen M3? Next gen M3 would hose this car.
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      02-16-2013, 01:37 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verbs View Post
How do you figure? Are we only talking in a straight line? To some, performance is the whole ball of wax (handling, braking, etc)


We talking current M3? Next gen M3? Next gen M3 would hose this car.
BMW Alpina B3 Biturbo S[/b] [6AUT] (E90) / BMW M3 Competition [7DKG] (E90)
0-100 km/h: 4.5 sec / 4.5 sec
0-200 km/h: 15.4 sec / 15.6 sec
1/4 mile: 12.68 sec / 12.67 sec
l/100 km: 11.0 l / 13.0 l
Base price: € 61.200 / € 66.400
Sachsenring: 1:40.93 min / 1:40.52 min

Source: Auto Bild Sportscars Nr. 11, 2010

Nough said.
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      02-16-2013, 01:43 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
BMW Alpina B3 Biturbo S[/b] [6AUT] (E90) / BMW M3 Competition [7DKG] (E90)
0-100 km/h: 4.5 sec / 4.5 sec
0-200 km/h: 15.4 sec / 15.6 sec
1/4 mile: 12.68 sec / 12.67 sec
l/100 km: 11.0 l / 13.0 l
Base price: € 61.200 / € 66.400
Sachsenring: 1:40.93 min / 1:40.52 min

Source: Auto Bild Sportscars Nr. 11, 2010

Nough said.
so..the M3 was faster around the Sachensenring?
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      02-16-2013, 03:14 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by shivaswrath View Post
so..the M3 was faster around the Sachensenring?
Yes, by 0.3 sec. So what?
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      02-16-2013, 04:06 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Alpina and BMW have an agreement that prevents additional Alpina models being sold in the US. An M3 and B3 would be too close for comfort especially in price comparison.

Alpinas success is down to its exclusivity.
Performance In a tailor made suit.
Whereas the equivalent M is the mass produced designer suit. An Alpina customer knows that he won't see the same car on the next street.
In Canada we can buy Alpina no problem. Right at the dealership.
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      02-16-2013, 09:02 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
BMW Alpina B3 Biturbo S[/b] [6AUT] (E90) / BMW M3 Competition [7DKG] (E90)
0-100 km/h: 4.5 sec / 4.5 sec
0-200 km/h: 15.4 sec / 15.6 sec
1/4 mile: 12.68 sec / 12.67 sec
l/100 km: 11.0 l / 13.0 l
Base price: € 61.200 / € 66.400
Sachsenring: 1:40.93 min / 1:40.52 min

Source: Auto Bild Sportscars Nr. 11, 2010

Nough said.
We're talking about F30 cars, so I don't think it's fair based on E90 comparisons to assume that the F30 B3 is going to be the best choice from a price/performance point of view vs. the F30 M3 which isn't even out yet.
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      02-17-2013, 04:01 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verbs View Post
We're talking about F30 cars, so I don't think it's fair based on E90 comparisons to assume that the F30 B3 is going to be the best choice from a price/performance point of view vs. the F30 M3 which isn't even out yet.
Your are saying the M3 E9X was a bad car, that is why the B3 E9X was so close to it, but now the M3 F8X will be a good car, so the B3 F3X will not be that close to it?
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      02-17-2013, 06:21 AM   #78
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In Canada we can buy Alpina no problem. Right at the dealership.
I thought only the B7 was only available in North America?
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      02-17-2013, 06:32 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zebra99 View Post
This car will cost an arm and leg more than a stock 335i so who cares if it has 410hp?
The same kind of people that care and will pay to get from 420 to 520 HP in their M3, and put down 15.000 $ to get a compressor installed to obtain this.

And Alpina does not only work on the engine, but the whole package (engine, cooling, interior, trim, exterior, transmission, ...) plus you get something exclusive, AND YOU GET FACTORY WARRANTY !!

So I would care !
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      02-17-2013, 08:08 AM   #80
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I thought only the B7 was only available in North America?
You are correct.
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      02-17-2013, 12:11 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Your are saying the M3 E9X was a bad car, that is why the B3 E9X was so close to it, but now the M3 F8X will be a good car, so the B3 F3X will not be that close to it?
Where did I say the E9x M3 was a bad car but the F8x will be a good car? I never said that.

Let's be clear, the F30 Alpina B3 only gains 10hp over the previous model with more or less the same engine/power delivery profile, and the car doesn't weigh substantially different from the previous version most likely. A low 5500rpm horsepower peak indicates boost is being tapered off at higher rpms. It does however get the 8 speed tranny which will help performance a tad no doubt.

The new F8x M3 will have a completely different engine setup and power delivery profile than the previous M3, not to mention they're targeting a noticeable weight reduction for the car. There's no reason this car can't come in 150-200lbs lighter than the Alpina. With all these changes, and a still unknown final power figure, it's an apples to oranges comparison, but also premature right now to say that because the E9x B3 was better bang for your buck than say the e9x M3, the same will be true with the F3x B3 vs. the F8x M3.
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      02-17-2013, 01:49 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by verbs View Post
Where did I say the E9x M3 was a bad car but the F8x will be a good car? I never said that.

Let's be clear, the F30 Alpina B3 only gains 10hp over the previous model with more or less the same engine/power delivery profile, and the car doesn't weigh substantially different from the previous version most likely. A low 5500rpm horsepower peak indicates boost is being tapered off at higher rpms. It does however get the 8 speed tranny which will help performance a tad no doubt.

The new F8x M3 will have a completely different engine setup and power delivery profile than the previous M3, not to mention they're targeting a noticeable weight reduction for the car. There's no reason this car can't come in 150-200lbs lighter than the Alpina. With all these changes, and a still unknown final power figure, it's an apples to oranges comparison, but also premature right now to say that because the E9x B3 was better bang for your buck than say the e9x M3, the same will be true with the F3x B3 vs. the F8x M3.
Totally agree with that. That is why seing how good the B3 performance figures , I can only imagine what the M3 will be.

I said that in regard to those discrediting the Alpina. It is a better choice than a 335i if you can get it. No tuned 335i will be better than the Alpina, so let alone comparing 335i to M3. (taking about F30/F80)
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      02-17-2013, 01:59 PM   #83
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Yes, by 0.3 sec. So what?
trying to understand the point of the apples and oranges comparison, that's all...
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      02-17-2013, 02:30 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by shivaswrath View Post
trying to understand the point of the apples and oranges comparison, that's all...
Comparing same cars with approx. the same power and the same price is "apples and oranges comparision"? So I guess there is only one sort of apple and one sort of orange.
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      02-17-2013, 03:52 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verbs View Post
Let's be clear, the F30 Alpina B3 only gains 10hp over the previous model with more or less the same engine/power delivery profile, and the car doesn't weigh substantially different from the previous version most likely. A low 5500rpm horsepower peak indicates boost is being tapered off at higher rpms. It does however get the 8 speed tranny which will help performance a tad no doubt.
There's only been a moderate hp gain because it seems that the new M3 will have almost no power gain as compared to the E9x M3 (rumours have it at between 430 - 450 hp). Alpina has to respect a certain power gap between their cars and the equivalent from the M GmbH - with a bigger turbo charger they could have gone far beyond the M3 power levels with the E9x already, but they were not allowed to do so. Same story for the F30.

Also, we don't know that it will be the same engine as the N54. No details about the engine have been released yet, but there are rumours that it is based on the F80 M3 engine which will most likely be a N54 with valvetronic and twin scroll, i.e. a mixture between the N54 and N55 engines. Alpina will certainly not re-use the N54, as this engine is not efficient enough any longer and fuel efficiency is something that Alpina is prioritizing due to marketing strategies. A straight six biturbo engine with valvetronic and twin scroll will be stronger than the N54 and have better fuel efficiency.

IMO it will probably boil down to a similar situation as we are already seeing right now with the M5 / B5 Biturbo, which are very similar in power but differentiate themselves mainly through suspension and clutch setups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by verbs View Post
The new F8x M3 will have a completely different engine setup and power delivery profile than the previous M3, not to mention they're targeting a noticeable weight reduction for the car. There's no reason this car can't come in 150-200lbs lighter than the Alpina.
I agree with you that it's a bit premature to compare the two cars as we don't have the final details about either. But forums are also there to speculate, and there is some proof from very similar situations in the most recent past (see above the M5 / B5 BT comparison).

I disagree with you that the new M3 F80 will be substantially lighter than the F30 Alpina. They will share the same chassis, and without heavy use of carbon fibre (which is excluded for cost reasons) a substantial weight reduction seems very unlikely for me to achieve. Granted, the new M3 biturbo engine will be lighter than the previous V8 (but also have to feature a water-to-air intercooler and other mechanics for the two turbos), and as previously they'll use a CF roof and lots of aluminium in the suspension. But that *might* gain 100lbs if compared to a 335i / Alpina B3, which in this weight class is negligble. Just look at the M3 CRT - even with the use of carbon fibre the weight reduction was almost non-existent.

I'd love to be pleasantly surprised, but the last few years have not given any indication that BMW sees weight reduction on mass-production cars as a priority (at present).

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      02-17-2013, 04:03 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
Granted, the new M3 biturbo engine will be lighter than the previous V8...
I repeat it constantly, this cannot happen without highly increasing costs.

N54: 195 kg
S65: 204 kg

9 kg weight difference is nothing.
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      02-17-2013, 04:29 PM   #87
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There's only been a moderate hp gain because it seems that the new M3 will have almost no power gain as compared to the E9x M3 (rumours have it at between 430 - 450 hp).
I don't see how you can say that. Is 100 lb-ft of peak torque gain with even more than that under the curve, and a subsequent sizeable horsepower jump under the curve as well almost no power gain? Peak numbers aren't the end all, especially on the track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
I disagree with you that the new M3 F80 will be substantially lighter than the F30 Alpina. They will share the same chassis, and without heavy use of carbon fibre (which is excluded for cost reasons) a substantial weight reduction seems very unlikely for me to achieve. Granted, the new M3 biturbo engine will be lighter than the previous V8 (but also have to feature a water-to-air intercooler and other mechanics for the two turbos), and as previously they'll use a CF roof and lots of aluminium in the suspension. But that *might* gain 100lbs if compared to a 335i / Alpina B3, which in this weight class is negligble. Just look at the M3 CRT - even with the use of carbon fibre the weight reduction was almost non-existent.
There are a number of ways weight can be dropped. Lighter sports seats, lighter weight wheels, lighter weight exhaust system, carbon fiber driveshaft, lighter weight battery, smaller gas tank since the car will get a lot better mileage, a few lbs from lighter engine internals, maybe a magnesium engine cradle if it's not being used currently, etc.... and as we've seen in testing carbon ceramic rotors which shave nearly 50lbs themselves. And if the M3 wants to get real serious about weight loss and back to its roots a bit, a reduction/disallowance of certain amenities.

Carbon fiber has gotten a lot cheaper of late, so I wouldn't be surprised to see BMW increasing its use of it....and BMW is currently partnering with BMW to improve carbon fiber manufacturing/recycling techniques.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
I'd love to be pleasantly surprised, but the last few years have not given any indication that BMW sees weight reduction on mass-production cars as a priority (at present).
While I'm not getting my hopes up too high, there have been rumblings of this, and keep in mind, weight loss falls into BMW's efficient dynamics mantra while allowing for improved performance.

From that linked article:
Quote:
M engineers have targeted the E46 M3 weight in developing the F80/F82.The E46 M3's curb weight is 3,415 lb, while the current E90 M3 and E92 M3 weigh 3,726 and 3,704 pounds, respectively
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      02-17-2013, 04:32 PM   #88
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I repeat it constantly, this cannot happen without highly increasing costs.

N54: 195 kg
S65: 204 kg

9 kg weight difference is nothing.
On the track/handling 9kg/20lbs on the front end where it matters most does help a shade. Not night and day, no.
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