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      02-10-2013, 04:05 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by dopper99 View Post
Depends which E90. Most later LCI E90's have electric steering (so called efficient dynamics) which lightened the steering. Mine is electric and does feel lighter than my previous 330d pre-LCI.
Yes, aware of some E9x models moving to EPAS. Even that got its criticisms by many who preferred the older but heavy HPAS. On the other hand many new drivers to BMW who had EPAS fitted, had no issues at all with its feel and weighting.

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      02-10-2013, 06:19 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Sod it, just rip the whole thing out, my 700hp race car has no assisted steering, I can drive that to the very edge of adhesion and hold it there in complete control.

Modern car manufacturers, spend millions improving the suspension, stiffening the chassis, then cock up the steering because some of their clientèle like to drink oversized coffee's and eat dunkin donuts whilst steering with their pinkie finger.

Right off to start a thread on the F30 cup holders and how they struggle with a 32Oz coffee cup......oh hang on, that thread already exists
LOL++
All because of the Yanks. It really got a bit stupid on the General Forum. Yanks would not buy BMWs because of the smaller cup holders! I thought I was hallucinating when I read it. Crazy.
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      02-10-2013, 07:19 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
....but e90 steering is horrible

these types of statement only confuse matters more. The e90 has an overly stiff feel to it. Most E90 owners feel the F30 steering is too light. F30 servotronic to me is too stiff in Sport mode (stiff as in takes feel away).

Perhaps VSS adds weight but still provides good feel???? If I could disable the stiffer sport setting on my Servotronic I would be a happy bunny.
Find this the same on my R56 Cooper S sport setting throttle response great but steering to stiff and numb
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      02-10-2013, 07:24 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
Sod it, just rip the whole thing out, my 700hp race car has no assisted steering, I can drive that to the very edge of adhesion and hold it there in complete control.

Modern car manufacturers, spend millions improving the suspension, stiffening the chassis, then cock up the steering because some of their clientèle like to drink oversized coffee's and eat dunkin donuts whilst steering with their pinkie finger.

Right off to start a thread on the F30 cup holders and how they struggle with a 32Oz coffee cup......oh hang on, that thread already exists
LOL that made me chuckle just what it is all about in marketing departments know after they do there surveys. BMW should stick to what they do best and customers will return like me, have to say i was also disappointed with the e90 steering compared to my e46, as i said if we get back to lighter cars and more like the the E30 we are onto a winner. But the issue BMW has is they want to grow and fill every niche and take customers that have no idea what front or rear drive will do for the car or driver, and these are all in the rader from BMW with the next 1 series front Wheel Drive.
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      02-10-2013, 07:57 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by derekh929 View Post
Find this the same on my R56 Cooper S sport setting throttle response great but steering to stiff and numb
Yeah, that is what happens when you listen to idiot customers.

When power assisted steering (hydraulic) was first introduced, people complained because the 'feel' of what the wheels were doing was watered down. It quickly became accepted that 'easy' assistance made this worse, so sports orientated manufacturers like BMW reduced the amount of assistance. This was described as being 'stiffer' (less assistance = more sporty feel).

We now live in a world of electric servo power assist, which works completely differently to hydraulic.
In the world of electric, over assist actually gives the better 'feel'. The mechanics mean it is more fluid and sensitive in this state. Stiffening EPAS gives a very wooden, feel.

Yet traditional 'stiff is best' boulevard racers, want harder steering (stiffer) movement, regardless of feel. They don't even know what 'feel' means in many cases. Sadly BMW have listened to the clueless masses that never even go round corners or over 55mph.
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      02-10-2013, 04:52 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
yet traditional 'stiff is best' boulevard racers, want harder steering (stiffer) movement, regardless of feel. They don't even know what 'feel' means in many cases. Sadly BMW have listened to the clueless masses that never even go round corners or over 55mph.
Hence the different viewpoints. We have guys on these and other forums who want to configure sport steering in Eco-Pro, and guys like yourself who want a normal setting with sport suspension.

I find for myself in the F11, that the normal mode setting is a better feel to the steering, allows for a finer control of the car. Being critical, I do tend to agree that sport mode stiffens the steering for no benefit in steering control. The added weight and heft needed to steer, means more movement is needed, or you feel you are understeering into bends.

Personally I feel some of the desire for steering weight is to overcome the stiffer ride folks like, partly absorbs the extra vibration and body movement in the car. It is then a damped steering feel, easier not to have over reactions. Plus from observation, I detect some drivers just don't have the ability to fine tune themselves to very light controls and finer movements.

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      02-10-2013, 07:02 PM   #29
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Hi Guys,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Question: I have a 320d ED on order and after reading this I'm thinking about changing my order. My problem is that I really need to have very light steering in comfort no matter what speed but on the flip side it would be nice to have a sportier (read heavier) set-up when needed.

Can anyone confirm that this is what VSS will give me? I really really don't want heavy steering all the time like I did in my old 123d, hated that.

Also can anyone advise on whether or not VSS genuinely provides more feedback (not weight) to the steering?

Thanks
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      02-11-2013, 11:57 AM   #30
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My previous motor, a 320D E90 M-Sport 59 reg had Servotronic Steering which I thought at the time was pretty good.
All in all an improvement on my previous to that E90 with hyd steering, 55 reg motor. Why? The E90 with SS was a doodle to park and the steering stiffened up a nicely at speed with reduced angular movement. Very Nice!
My current F30 with 2VL Variable Sport Steering is even better!
Switching from Comfort to Sport is quite noticeable, giving the car a stability and confidence in cornering, which compared with all other cars I have ever driven is the best by a long way (bar E90).
My bench mark in a cars ability in stability and cornering is to take at speed a long sweeping motorway curve, overtaking in the wet thro' the spray.
My F30 320D does this with complete confidence, the E90 comes close, in holding the road with accurate positive steering, with stability and road grip.
Don't forget, the F30 series up to M-Sport is designed as a comfortable family saloon car, not an M3 type with leanings to track days and boy racers!
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      02-11-2013, 01:06 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiller View Post
Hi Guys,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Question: I have a 320d ED on order and after reading this I'm thinking about changing my order. My problem is that I really need to have very light steering in comfort no matter what speed but on the flip side it would be nice to have a sportier (read heavier) set-up when needed.

Can anyone confirm that this is what VSS will give me? I really really don't want heavy steering all the time like I did in my old 123d, hated that.

Also can anyone advise on whether or not VSS genuinely provides more feedback (not weight) to the steering?

Thanks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveyc View Post
I was going to start a new thread on this topic. F30AM, you'll want to shoot me, but I ordered the VSS, even though I couldn't get a clear picture of what it did to the drive.

When test driving various F30s and F31s, I drove three cars, both with and without adaptive and ran all of them in Sport. In all three, while I appreciated the precision of the steering, the feel was much too light for my taste, and there was little sense of it weighting up as you pushed harder into a bend at speed.

VSS doesn't have much positive impact in Comfort mode, simply feeling a bit sharper than standard. But, but ... in Sport mode, the difference is dramatic. There is serious weight if you push into a bend at and you get a real sense of the wheel tugging firmly but smoothly at your hands in the bend - really great feel that puts you far more in touch with the car and what it's doing.

Forget all the techie stuff about steering ratios increasing after 90 degrees of lock - that could well be true, but it means nothing to my hands, feet and bum. What VSS does in sport mode (only in Sport) is give the steering oodles of feel and feedback, with seriously chunky but realistic weight. For keen drivers, it's a world apart from the standard steering. For me, it transforms the experience in Sport (chassis and drivetrain) from good to fantastic and I have to fight off the urge to yob it around dark A roads all night and blow my mileage budget on the lease (already 50% ahead of planned mileage due to succumbing to exactly this urge).

Sorry to bring bad news, but do feel free to push dogturds through my letter box for the next few weeks if that cheers you up. I'd do the same.

Anyway, the good news is that you know what to spec on the 440d when you switch cars ... :-)
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      02-11-2013, 03:39 PM   #32
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Hi Tiller,

Just to confirm per F30AM's post, if you spec VSS, the steering stays light in both eco and comfort. I found it too light in these modes at first, but it's a slow-burn thing and you come to appreciate the consistent precision and there is still some useful feel.

It's only in Sport that it comes alive and takes on real weight and feel. The difference is quite dramatic over comfort and, for me, it really fits in nicely with the feel of the car in full sport (chassis and drivetrain).

To qualify what I said in my earlier post, the feel with VSS in sport mode is impressive for an electric system, but we're not talking 996 911 feel here (or 997 for that matter). But getting away from 911s, I'd say this is as good as I've felt on a recent beemer and I'm not missing hydraulic steering.

To split hairs, you could say the feel comes across as a little manufactured at times, but I find that only really applies in slower bends that you take gently and there is still that satisfyingly meaty feel anyway. Up the pace and push the car deeper into a bend and the feel is impressive, with the tugging feel varying slightly as the car moves its weight around and goes over small bumps, just as it should in conventional system. I still can't work out how BMW do this bit, given it's all synthetic. Glad they did though.

I think BMW should re-word the brochure entries for VSS. All the entries I've seen waffle on with a load of corporate twaddle about variable steering ratio and completely fail to point out that there is lots more weight and feel and that this is reserved for Sport mode, so you can still have the finger steering thing if you have American relatives ...
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      02-11-2013, 04:03 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveyc View Post
Hi Tiller,

Just to confirm per F30AM's post, if you spec VSS, the steering stays light in both eco and comfort. I found it too light in these modes at first, but it's a slow-burn thing and you come to appreciate the consistent precision and there is still some useful feel.

It's only in Sport that it comes alive and takes on real weight and feel. The difference is quite dramatic over comfort and, for me, it really fits in nicely with the feel of the car in full sport (chassis and drivetrain).

To qualify what I said in my earlier post, the feel with VSS in sport mode is impressive for an electric system, but we're not talking 996 911 feel here (or 997 for that matter). But getting away from 911s, I'd say this is as good as I've felt on a recent beemer and I'm not missing hydraulic steering.

To split hairs, you could say the feel comes across as a little manufactured at times, but I find that only really applies in slower bends that you take gently and there is still that satisfyingly meaty feel anyway. Up the pace and push the car deeper into a bend and the feel is impressive, with the tugging feel varying slightly as the car moves its weight around and goes over small bumps, just as it should in conventional system. I still can't work out how BMW do this bit, given it's all synthetic. Glad they did though.

I think BMW should re-word the brochure entries for VSS. All the entries I've seen waffle on with a load of corporate twaddle about variable steering ratio and completely fail to point out that there is lots more weight and feel and that this is reserved for Sport mode, so you can still have the finger steering thing if you have American relatives ...
Thanks for this but does the standard Seritronic steering not firm up in sport as well, and how would you compare this to standard m sport steering
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      02-11-2013, 04:51 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by derekh929 View Post
Thanks for this but does the standard Seritronic steering not firm up in sport as well, and how would you compare this to standard m sport steering
My understanding is standard steering is bog standard electric without Servotronic (SS). The SS option is £180 with I do have and it does firm up in Sport mode. I don't know if this is the case without SS or VSS.
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      02-11-2013, 05:41 PM   #35
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Thanks for this but does the standard Seritronic steering not firm up in sport as well, and how would you compare this to standard m sport steering
Sorry Derek, I don't know the answer to that question. I know that in the F31 330d demo car I drove, the steering certainly weighted up in Sport and the sales guy was keen to point that feature out. I know that car didn't have VSS, but I don't know if it had standard steering or servotronic.

Sorry, this isn't much help. Also, BMW don't help at all in their description on their car configuration: 'Servotronic adapts the power steering supper to the current speed and provides superior comfort by reducing the required steering force'.

This could mean anything, including that the steering weights up more in Sport mode. I'd bug your dealer until you can find someone who knows or, better, get test drives of cars with standard and VSS.
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