[boltjames]

Originally Posted by jtuds

Are you angry because GM made a car that reviewers are saying has matched the 3 series on some characteristics?

It's clear BMW has changed the focus of the 3 series to attract buyers from other brands. Therefore, it's no surprise that the gap is closing....they can blame themselves for that.

No, not angry at all. I pay no attention to off-brands like Cadillac, so if they sell some cars good for them, doesn't affect me at all. I get annoyed at the endless comparisons cluttering up the board because it's a waste of time, but it's not the end of the world.

BMW has not changed its focus to attract buyers from other brands; they responded to the needs of their existing customer base by making a car that is bigger for our growing families, more luxurious for our growing salaries, and softer for our growing maturity. Eventually, you turn 40, high school girls don't look at you any more, local streets stop being drag strips, and you grow up as you shuttle your kids to baseball practice.

BMW has built a car that millions of customers will find engaging. Cadillac has built a car for no one. Too small for it's 60 year old consumer base, too expensive for Chevy owners to step-up to, too silly a brand to be taken seriously.

The F30 will be the best selling car in BMW's history. They've definitely only have themselves to "blame" if you want to call it that.

BJ

[alep85]

Originally Posted by Elk

+1

Rational discourse based on actual facts and real-world experience has no place here.

True that. Don't expect to come to a BMW fanboy forum and hear glowing praises for the ATS. That being said, if I couldn't get an F30, the ATS 3.6 would be my 2nd choice.

[claykin]

Here's my 2 cents after a real world test drive of an ATS.

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=133

[rxander]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Do you guys in the US seriously think the car has 'looks' inside or out?

I look it from an 'across the pond' perspective and I just can't get my head around the front of the car at all. Where is the design? Is there any theme to it at all? To me the interior dash is just plain horrible, I just couldn't live with it, day in day out, however it drives.

Sorry, but I'd just walk by and think some "poor soul" will buy that, and have to live with it.

Each to his own, but the ATS doesn't stir me one little bit.

HighlandPete

I feel the same but the flip side is ATS owners are saying the same thing. I get that 'look' from an ATS owner parking across from me at work. I really can't see how most BMW owners can cross shop or compare the 2. When I was shopping for a new car : BMW 3 series, Audi A4, then the C300 from Mercedes.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by boltjames

No, not angry at all. I pay no attention to off-brands like Cadillac, so if they sell some cars good for them, doesn't affect me at all. I get annoyed at the endless comparisons cluttering up the board because it's a waste of time, but it's not the end of the world.

BMW has not changed its focus to attract buyers from other brands; they responded to the needs of their existing customer base by making a car that is bigger for our growing families, more luxurious for our growing salaries, and softer for our growing maturity. Eventually, you turn 40, high school girls don't look at you any more, local streets stop being drag strips, and you grow up as you shuttle your kids to baseball practice.

BMW has built a car that millions of customers will find engaging. Cadillac has built a car for no one. Too small for it's 60 year old consumer base, too expensive for Chevy owners to step-up to, too silly a brand to be taken seriously.

The F30 will be the best selling car in BMW's history. They've definitely only have themselves to "blame" if you want to call it that.

BJ

LOL. Here's some kool-aid.

[Michael Schott]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Do you guys in the US seriously think the car has 'looks' inside or out?

I look it from an 'across the pond' perspective and I just can't get my head around the front of the car at all. Where is the design? Is there any theme to it at all? To me the interior dash is just plain horrible, I just couldn't live with it, day in day out, however it drives.

Sorry, but I'd just walk by and think some "poor soul" will buy that, and have to live with it.

Each to his own, but the ATS doesn't stir me one little bit.

HighlandPete

Your take is not surprising from a European. European cars tend to have simpler more functional style than those in the USA. I looked at an ATS the other day at a dealer and thought it looked fine. It's directly in line with the angular style Cadillac started with the original CTS. It's definitely a tauter design than the more bulbous 3 series. Both look nice to me. I also liked the Caddy interior except they have tried to make it too high tech looking at the expense of functionality. Get rid of the piano black that is everywhere and give me normal gauges and a simpler interface.

[Reznick]

Originally Posted by jzcrna

I totally agree. I don't care what the reviews and claims are. Nobody is going to cross-shop BMW and Cadillac. GM was dumb to think that they would convert BMW drivers.

I agree that the only people that will be buying this car are present Cadillac owners or those who are tired of Acura or Infiniti. I think Acura is in real trouble IMHO.

Well I must have aged by 40+ years while I was sleeping one night (since as someone had posted earlier, that only people in their 80's are buying caddy's) and yes I've cross shopped BMW & Cadillac.& yes I currently own BOTH. My first brand new car was a BMW. I had many new BMW's follow that one. I've had a good range of all makes and models of cars and trucks. I drove the first Gen CTS when it came out and passed on it. Everything about it was wrong. Then came the 2nd generation CTS . I drove 3.6 DI and loved it.SOOO much better than the 1st Gen, inside & out.Bought one in late 2009. It wasn't a direct competitor to the 3 series, but it wasn't meant to be.I still have that CTS & it has never been in the shop for any repairs. I just drove all 3 versions of the ATS last week. Obviously I liked the 3.6 , but the 2.5 turbo was a fun car. To me the ONLY thing that let the car down was the transmission. The car is handsome. Everything looks tight. The interior is elegant and has nice feel on the plastics. I will agree that its not quite there ,,,yet as a direct competitor to the 3 series. BUt the car just came out. There will be improvements to come.( hopefully the transmission and the best improvement ,a V). The supension and steering feeling were spot on to me
Anyone who doesn't cross shop these 2 cars is making a mistake. I hate when people already have their mind made up about a car without even driving it. Who cares what a magazine or journalist says,,go drive it for yourself and make up your own mind.If you're that guy or girl that has it in their head that " BMW is the best , so why would I consider something else" I really feel sorry for you . If the BMW is what you've been dreaming of for a long time,,go for it ,you won't be disappointed . But once you get that 1st one out of your system go try something else . There's no saying you can't go back .Ultimately if you can afford to own 2 nice cars from different manufacturers , why not? Sorry for the rant
For those of you wondering, I just turned 40 last week. I bought my first new BMW when I was 24. I bought my first car when I was 14 , a 66 Chevelle. I still have it....I'm far from 80 & I still have a full head of hair without any grey steaks,,yet

[F30AM]

Fictional Truth.


Pretty girl (or boy):
Question: What car do you drive?
Answer: A Cadillac.
Reaction: I see. (Down turned mouth, total lack of interest).
End of conversation. No chance of a bonk.


Pretty girl (or boy):
Question: What car do you drive?
Answer: A BMW.
Reaction: Wow! That's nice. (Interest levels rising, eyes widening, chance of a fumble on the agenda).
Question: Which kind?
Answer: A 3 Series.
Reaction: Wow! How fab is that? (Huge interest, good chance of more than a fumble).
Question: Is it fast?
Answer: Yes, very.
Reaction: I bet it is. (Interest levels now rising really rapidly, widened eyes, nearly in for a bonk).
Question: Do you love it?
Answer: Very much. It's a fabulous car.
Reaction: Wow! You lucky sod. (The deal is nearly done. Bonking is on the agenda. Only a nuclear war can stop it).
Question: What colour is it?
Answer: Estoril Blue II with Coral Red Leather.
Reaction: Wow! It must look really lovely. (Interest levels now sky high, lots of bonking on the agenda, love is in the air).
Question: I'd love to have a ride in it. Can I?
The rest is history .........

A BMW is The Ultimate Driving Machine and then some.

I rest my case.

[Lucky13]

When the 2 series coupe (4 door) arrives in 2014 it will be a direct competitor to the ATS and may undercut it in price. Interior space should be comparable which is down from the 3 series.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by F30AM

Fictional Truth.


Pretty girl (or boy):
Question: What car do you drive?
Answer: A Cadillac.
Reaction: I see. (Down turned mouth, total lack of interest).
End of conversation. No chance of a bonk.


Pretty girl (or boy):
Question: What car do you drive?
Answer: A BMW.
Reaction: Wow! That's nice. (Interest levels rising, eyes widening, chance of a fumble on the agenda).
Question: Which kind?
Answer: A 3 Series.
Reaction: Wow! How fab is that? (Huge interest, good chance of more than a fumble).
Question: Is it fast?
Answer: Yes, very.
Reaction: I bet it is. (Interest levels now rising really rapidly, widened eyes, nearly in for a bonk).
Question: Do you love it?
Answer: Very much. It's a fabulous car.
Reaction: Wow! You lucky sod. (The deal is nearly done. Bonking is on the agenda. Only a nuclear war can stop it).
Question: What colour is it?
Answer: Estoril Blue II with Coral Red Leather.
Reaction: Wow! It must look really lovely. (Interest levels now sky high, lots of bonking on the agenda, love is in the air).
Question: I'd love to have a ride in it. Can I?
The rest is history .........

A BMW is The Ultimate Driving Machine and then some.

I rest my case.

Here's an idea, some people have such fine attributes that they don't need a fancy badge-whore car to get laid. Generally speaking, those people with such fine attributes and maturity, also enjoy driving a fine car, regardless of the badge on the hood.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Reznick

Well I must have aged by 40+ years while I was sleeping one night (since as someone had posted earlier, that only people in their 80's are buying caddy's) and yes I've cross shopped BMW & Cadillac.& yes I currently own BOTH. My first brand new car was a BMW. I had many new BMW's follow that one. I've had a good range of all makes and models of cars and trucks. I drove the first Gen CTS when it came out and passed on it. Everything about it was wrong. Then came the 2nd generation CTS . I drove 3.6 DI and loved it.SOOO much better than the 1st Gen, inside & out.Bought one in late 2009. It wasn't a direct competitor to the 3 series, but it wasn't meant to be.I still have that CTS & it has never been in the shop for any repairs. I just drove all 3 versions of the ATS last week. Obviously I liked the 3.6 , but the 2.5 turbo was a fun car. To me the ONLY thing that let the car down was the transmission. The car is handsome. Everything looks tight. The interior is elegant and has nice feel on the plastics. I will agree that its not quite there ,,,yet as a direct competitor to the 3 series. BUt the car just came out. There will be improvements to come.( hopefully the transmission and the best improvement ,a V). The supension and steering feeling were spot on to me
Anyone who doesn't cross shop these 2 cars is making a mistake. I hate when people already have their mind made up about a car without even driving it. Who cares what a magazine or journalist says,,go drive it for yourself and make up your own mind.If you're that guy or girl that has it in their head that " BMW is the best , so why would I consider something else" I really feel sorry for you . If the BMW is what you've been dreaming of for a long time,,go for it ,you won't be disappointed . But once you get that 1st one out of your system go try something else . There's no saying you can't go back .Ultimately if you can afford to own 2 nice cars from different manufacturers , why not? Sorry for the rant
For those of you wondering, I just turned 40 last week. I bought my first new BMW when I was 24. I bought my first car when I was 14 , a 66 Chevelle. I still have it....I'm far from 80 & I still have a full head of hair without any grey steaks,,yet

I'll say this, as a 50-year old with a full head of hair (and some grey), after 25-years of 3-Series ownership, I see the Cadillac ATS as a way to not have to step up to an old-man's overtly large and cumbersome F10 5-Series and buy a car that has some class but actually possess some of the preferred attributes of the 3-Series, those being the correct size and weight, great handling, steering, and braking...

I hope someone comes out with a "Piss-on BMW" sticker for my new ATS.

Is the shift quailty of the manual really THAT bad.

[justinnum1]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'll say this, as a 50-year old with a full head of hair (and some grey), after 25-years of 3-Series ownership, I see the Cadillac ATS as a way to not have to step up to an old-man's overtly large and cumbersome F10 5-Series and buy a car that has some class but actually possess some of the preferred attributes of the 3-Series, those being the correct size and weight, great handling, steering, and braking...

I hope someone comes out with a "Piss-on BMW" sticker for my new ATS.

Is the shift quailty of the manual really THAT bad.

It's awful from what i read.

[boltjames]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

LOL. Here's some kool-aid.

Yeah, because it's not like this hasn't happened before, right?

The last time Cadillac tried the "sporty smaller car" concept it nearly took the company down.

You'd think they'd learn the lesson of avoiding cars that have no audience.

BJ

[boltjames]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'll say this, as a 50-year old with a full head of hair (and some grey), after 25-years of 3-Series ownership, I see the Cadillac ATS as a way to not have to step up to an old-man's overtly large and cumbersome F10 5-Series and buy a car that has some class but actually possess some of the preferred attributes of the 3-Series, those being the correct size and weight, great handling, steering, and braking...

I hope someone comes out with a "Piss-on BMW" sticker for my new ATS.

We'll get you a bumper sticker that says:

Quick-handling......road hugging......responsive for your Cimarron 2.0.

BJ

[Efthreeoh]

[quote=boltjames;12901325
We'll get you a bumper sticker that says:

Quick-handling......road hugging......responsive for your Cimarron 2.0.

BJ[/QUOTE]

Ah, all this from a "Luxury" F30 owner. Nice. Thanks, Mr. Expert. Get a real sport sedan then call me and we'll talk. I'll be happy to show you how to drive a 3-pedal car.

Enjoy those paddle-shifters.... Hope your Rolex doesn't scratch the console.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by justinnum1

It's awful from what i read.

That's the point. If BMW's shift so well, why does EVERYONE sell a short shift kit...

[justinnum1]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

That's the point. If BMW's shift so well, why does EVERYONE sell a short shift kit...

If ferraris sound so good, why do so many companies make exhausts for them?

[boltjames]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Ah, all this from a "Luxury" F30 owner. Nice. Thanks, Mr. Expert. Get a real sport sedan then call me and we'll talk. I'll be happy to show you how to drive a 3-pedal car.

Enjoy those paddle-shifters.... Hope your Rolex doesn't scratch the console.

You know, eventually you get to an age where high school girls don't find you attractive anymore.

Be safe in your Cadillac; wouldn't want your grandkids to get injured, Mr. Andretti.

BJ

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by justinnum1

If ferraris sound so good, why do so many companies make exhausts for them?

To make them sound better? I think you made my point. Thanks.

[justinnum1]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

To make them sound better? I think you made my point. Thanks.

Your point is not a very good one. The bmw manual isn't perfect. But its better than the ATS(from all reports).

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by boltjames

You know, eventually you get to an age where high school girls don't find you attractive anymore.

Be safe in your Cadillac; wouldn't want your grandkids to get injured, Mr. Andretti.

BJ

Yes, true, and thank God, who'd want to date a high-school girl when he's not of high-school age? High-school girls don't know much and it'd be a waste of time.

And my grandkids, if I had any, would know how to drive a manual transmission... I'd see to it.

Well, at least your hands are free so you can text on your phone while driving. See ya.

[boltjames]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Yes, true, and thank God, who'd want to date a high-school girl when he's not of high-school age? High-school girls don't know much and it'd be a waste of time.

And my grandkids, if I had any, would know how to drive a manual transmission... I'd see to it.

Well, at least your hands are free so you can text on your phone while driving. See ya.

Manual transmissions are for children, you're grown up now, pops.

BMW's and Cadillac's are not "sport sedans". The word "sport" is just put there by savvy marketers trying to fool people like you into thinking you're driving a race car as you pull out of PetSmart hauling a 40 pound bag of kibble back to your mundane life in suburbia.

Now get off the Windows 95 computer, put on your Member's Only jacket, grab that Rush cassette, and drive your son to soccer practice in your Cadillac you badass, you.

BJ